BARF Militia

[KIDRR]

My point on the Glock safety thing is valid. To use an analogy, it's like buying a car that turns itself off at 6000 rpm. Stay below 6000 rpm and you'll be fine. What if I don't want to stay below 6000rpm? What if I want my finger on the trigger? Well, then the Glock sucks.

But from the point of an engineer and a consumer, the Glock is not very user friendly.

That analogy is horrible. If you don' t want the car to move keep your foot off the gas pedal, that simple.

The glock IS user friendly, its made to shoot bullets at a target, nothing to turn on or off when you want to shoot.

 

[sohijiro]

i think chi has a norinco 1911, i was afraid to shoot it, it was crude at best. maybe you hsould go after a milspec springfield armory thye can be bought for aruond 400 bucks if you want a project gun, plus it has a forged frame


you can buy a frame and build on that, but unless you have a mill and other metal working tools to fit the slide the frame and all the other stuff i dont think you want to go that route.

edit- if your really dedcicated you can build a 1911 from scratch, i REALLY want to build a STI 1911, most likely i wont though, at least not for a few years. i have other projects im dealing with now

 

[zefflyn]

My point on the Glock safety thing is valid. To use an analogy, it's like buying a car that turns itself off at 6000 rpm. Stay below 6000 rpm and you'll be fine. What if I don't want to stay below 6000rpm? What if I want my finger on the trigger? Well, then the Glock sucks.

Dude, it is one of the first rules of gun safety that you keep your finger off the trigger until you want to shoot. Besides, why in the world would you want a gun that doesn't shoot when you pull the trigger?

It varies by circumstance, I know.
I've never had to draw on someone, I know that, too, so don't bother wasting your time with the "You don't have any experience" thing because it's obvious I don't. But from the point of an engineer and a consumer, the Glock is not very user friendly.

I'm also aware that we don't need tools to be smarter than us and we must be smart ourselves when using these deadly tools. However, if the condition of using a tool is holding it a special way and using it a special way, fuck it, I'll buy something else that I don't have to fuck with.

That is just amusing to no end that you think the Glock is too complicated/not user friendly. All the safeties are internal, precicely so there's nothing to fuck with.

So what, pray tell, is your ideal handgun that is so user friendly that you don't have to mind your trigger finger?

 

[fawndog]

That's why I don't like Glocks. Can't carry them cocked and locked. Fuck the trigger safety when you can do that to yourself. Sure he could've been safer with it, his finger shouldn't have been near the trigger, but hey, it happens..you're giving a presentation, there's a lot of kids there, you feel pressure, etc...

Glocks are always cocked and locked in thier own way. The only issue of concern are slamfires as seen in the video.
http://drunkendelight.com/content/videos/03084899.wmv

 

[Rogue]

Glocks are always cocked and locked in thier own way. The only issue of concern are slamfires as seen in the video.
http://drunkendelight.com/content/videos/03084899.wmv

That wasn't a slam fire. That was an untrained idiot thinking he knows what he was doing. Just loves how he tries to play it off when he capped himself

Glocks are perfectly safe. As others mentioned, keep the finger off the trigger if you don't intend to shoot.

 

[RydTher]

...
But from the point of an engineer and a consumer, the Glock is not very user friendly...

There is not a more user friendly handgun on the market than the Glock, aside from revolvers. The Glock was designed to be friendly to use. It was not originally designed to be a mass market handgun, but for military. Being an easy-to-teach design (that means user friendly) was a primary goal.

 

[zefflyn]

That wasn't a slam fire. That was an untrained idiot thinking he knows what he was doing. Just loves how he tries to play it off when he capped himself

Right - he released the slide when he was holding the gun above his head, then he pointed it at his foot and pulled the trigger.

At least he was then able to make the point - See how easy it is to accidentally shoot yourself? Don't play with guns!

 

[VentoGixxeRider]

But from the point of an engineer and a consumer, the Glock is not very user friendly.

As far as autoloaders go it dont get much more user friendly than a glock. Point and pull trigger, and it goes bang. And as far as disassembly pretty darn easy there too.

 

[ScorpioVI]

You guys remember our Australian eBayer with the stripper clips? Here's his new auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5173515848&fromMakeTrack=true

 

[Eisernkreuz]

You guys are skimming over my point and trying to focus on some side note. It's not user friendly because in an oh-shit situation, I won't be thinking, "Rule 2: Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to destroy your target" "Rule 3: Know your target and what lays beyond it" etc.

Mostly likely, I'd be pulling out that gun, finger on the trigger, and by the time I've aimed, the thumb would've taken out the safety. Muscle memory.

I'm a fan of external safeties (even though sometimes they fail, or don't do thier job when improperly used) so for me it's not user friendly. I'll be buying something I can cock and lock, and it won't be hammerless either. But that's just me, you guys feel free to run around with plastic guns, bullet in chamber, with a trigger "safety"

 

[zefflyn]

You guys are skimming over my point and trying to focus on some side note. It's not user friendly because in an oh-shit situation, I won't be thinking, "Rule 2: Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to destroy your target" "Rule 3: Know your target and what lays beyond it" etc.

Sure we will, if we practiced that way! Muscle memory, and all, you know.

Mostly likely, I'd be pulling out that gun, finger on the trigger, and by the time I've aimed, the thumb would've taken out the safety. Muscle memory.

So, you'll be waving your gun all over the place, pulling the trigger all the while, and flick the safety off when you're ready to shoot, and then back on when you're done, and still pulling the trigger?

I'm a fan of external safeties (even though sometimes they fail, or don't do thier job when improperly used) so for me it's not user friendly. I'll be buying something I can cock and lock, and it won't be hammerless either. But that's just me, you guys feel free to run around with plastic guns, bullet in chamber, with a trigger "safety"

You're going into engineering, right? You should design a gun that doesn't have a conventional trigger, but instead, the thumb lever is the trigger. That way, you could grip it with your four fingers, and fire it with your muscle-memory thumb!!! No complicated, non-user-friendly trigger to mess with!

 

[VeloceMoto]

I'll jump in on the Glock conversation...

I don't currently own any guns, but I'm looking to buy one. I've shot several hundred rounds over at Reed's in the last few months, getting a feel for the different types of guns out there.

I really liked the Kimber 1911's and the Glock 21.

I actually liked the passive safties that exist on the Glock. For personal defense, it seems like for one, I wouldn't want to fidget with external safties in an emergency (I'm sure this can be improved with muscle memory). But more importantly, it seems like safeties create a false sense of security. I don't think they're going to stop an incompetent or dangerous person from shooting themselves. ("oh, I thought the safety was on... ")

It seems like with the Glock, if you carry with Condition Zero, there is never any doubt as to whether the guy is ready to destroy something.

 

[RydTher]

You guys are skimming over my point and trying to focus on some side note. It's not user friendly because in an oh-shit situation, I won't be thinking, "Rule 2: Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to destroy your target" "Rule 3: Know your target and what lays beyond it" etc.

Mostly likely, I'd be pulling out that gun, finger on the trigger, and by the time I've aimed, the thumb would've taken out the safety. Muscle memory.

I'm a fan of external safeties (even though sometimes they fail, or don't do thier job when improperly used) so for me it's not user friendly. I'll be buying something I can cock and lock, and it won't be hammerless either. But that's just me, you guys feel free to run around with plastic guns, bullet in chamber, with a trigger "safety"

In gun safety discussions there are no side-notes. All are front and central

Most of us see your point and are trying to educate you. Talk to most if not all instructors in shooting, and your point would be laughed at. It takes no more time to put a finger on the trigger than it does to flick off a safety. The most important safety is the lump of grey matter between the ears.

when you shoot a lot, and practice the 4 rules of gun safety, guess what developes? MUSCLE MEMORY.

My 1911, when cocked/locked safety off is more safe than a good many others because I practice by the 4 rules. It is ingrained in me at this point. I conciously go through the motions of draw and present and only place the finger on the trigger when I know my target and have checked the backstop. Because I do this all the time, and have done it for a number of years, it is automatic and very fast.

Guns that can be cocked and locked with a seperate safety are more user UNfrinedly because they add steps. Anytime you add more steps than is necessary, you increase the chance of error.

I personally cant stand Glocks, but I can admit that for its designed purpose it is an excellent design.

 

[zefflyn]

Another cool thing about the Glock - since there's practically nothing on the outside, there is nothing to break off if it is dropped or something.

 

[zefflyn]

I just wanted to mention that I don't own a Glock - I think they look funny.

But on to my point - I did a yahoo search on hoplophobia, and found this cool quote:

Alan Korwin, author of the Arizona Gun Owner's Guide and one of the media participants, chalks up the media's lack of attention to Second Amendment issues to "hoplophobia," which is an irrational fear of firearms. When asked what a rational fear of firearms would be, Korwin replies, "When someone is pointing a loaded gun at you."

It also led me to this ChangeThatsRightNow.com website, which apparently uses templates and semi-generic names of phobias, to describe how debilitating a phobia is, and their sure-fire treatment:
http://www.changethatsrightnow.com/shortdescriptionlist.asp?phobiaid=1603

This produces such awesome quotes as:

What is Firearms Phobia?
Defined as "firearms", each year this surprisingly common phobia causes countless people needless distress.

To add insult to an already distressing condition, most firearms phobia therapies take months or years and sometimes even require the patient to be exposed repeatedly to their fear. We believe that not only is this totally unnecessary, it will often make the condition worse. And it is particularly cruel as firearms phobia can be eliminated with the right methods and just 24 hours of commitment by the phobic individual.

Known by a number of names - Hoplophobia, Fear of Firearms, and Fear of Guns being the most common - the problem often significantly impacts the quality of life. It can cause panic attacks and keep people apart from loved ones and business associates. Symptoms typically include shortness of breath, rapid breathing, irregular heartbeat, sweating, nausea, and overall feelings of dread, although everyone experiences firearms phobia in their own way and may have different symptoms. .

Though a variety of potent drugs are often prescribed for firearms phobia, side effects and/or withdrawal symptoms can be severe. Moreover, drugs do not "cure" firearms phobia or any other phobia. At best they temporarily suppress the symptoms through chemical interaction.

The good news is that the modern, fast, drug-free processes of The CTRN Phobia Clinic will train your mind to feel completely different about firearms, eliminating the fear so it never haunts you again.

Consider the true cost of living with Firearms Phobia.
If you are living with firearms phobia, what is the real cost to your health, your career or school, and to your family life? Avoiding the issue indefinitely would mean resigning yourself to living in fear, missing out on priceless life experiences big and small, living a life that is just a shadow of what it will be when the problem is gone.

For anyone earning a living, the financial toll of this phobia is incalculable. Living with fear means you can never concentrate fully and give your best. Lost opportunities. Poor performance or grades. Promotions that pass you by. firearms phobia will likely cost you tens, even hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of your lifetime, let alone the cost to your health and quality of life. Now Firearms Phobia can be gone for less than the price of a round-trip airline ticket.


What is the cause of Firearms Phobia?
Like all fears and phobias, firearms phobia is created by the unconscious mind as a protective mechanism. At some point in your past, there was likely an event linking firearms and emotional trauma. Whilst the original catalyst may have been a real-life scare of some kind, the condition can also be triggered by myriad, benign events like movies, TV, or perhaps seeing someone else experience trauma.

But so long as the negative association is powerful enough, the unconscious mind thinks: "Ahh, this whole thing is very dangerous. How do I keep myself from getting in this kind of situation again? I know, I'll attach terrible feelings to firearms, that way I'll steer clear in future and so be safe." Just like that firearms phobia is born. Attaching emotions to situations is one of the primary ways that humans learn. Sometimes we just get the wiring wrong.

The actual phobia manifests itself in different ways. Some sufferers experience it almost all the time, others just in response to direct stimuli. Everyone has their own unique formula for when and how to feel bad.

How do we do it?
We won't actually do anything: you will. Our practitioners will teach you to regain control of your emotions and conquer your Fear of Firearms. Working with us, you'll rapidly train your unconscious mind to connect different, positive feelings to the stimuli that triggers the phobia. And you will learn quickly now to stop the root cause of your Fear of Firearms: those awful thoughts, images, movies or sounds.
We are an ABNLP
Approved Program

We don't use hypnosis for Firearms Phobia but our modern techniques are equally relaxing and enjoyable. Clients immediately notice that they feel different. Once the unconscious mind feels safe and learns how to respond appropriately, it will always know - so the results are permanent. Firearms Phobia is gone. Forever.


How long & how much?
The Firearms Phobia Clinic at The CTRN Phobia Clinicª is entirely results-focused, so we charge you for the result you want: freedom from firearms phobia - regardless of how long it takes.

The process usually requires no more than ten hours. In exceptional cases we can achieve a favorable result in two to three. But because we guarantee the outcome, we will work with you for as long as it takes - five minutes, five hours, five weeks. We work highly effectively by telephone. This allows our clients far more flexibility in scheduling appointments, and the results are every bit as good as meeting in person.

You'll need to play your part, of course. Usually as part of the work with us there will be some easy and enjoyable homework for you to do, and that will be a key part of your success.

 

[ScorpioVI]

THE ROOT OF THE EVIL
by Jeff Cooper

My dictionary describes an obsession as "a haunting by a fixed idea." A haunting is a nagging, continuous fear of the unreal. A fixed idea is one that cannot be altered, by truth or reason or anything else.

Phobia is listed as "fear, horror, or aversion -- of a morbid character. "Morbid" is "unwholesome, sickly. "

Those of us who shoot cannot help being perplexed when we encounter people who are apparently haunted by a fixed and morbid aversion to our guns. When first we meet such persons we generally respond with explanations, as is only reasonable. But with time we discover that often we are not dealing with rational minds. This is not to say that everyone who is opposed to shooting is mentally aberrant, but it is to say that those who latch on to an unreasonable notion and thereafter refuse to listen to any further discussion of it have problems that are more amenable to psychiatry than to argument.

I coined the term hoplophobia over twenty years ago, not out of pretension but in the sincere belief that we should recognize a very peculiar sociological attitude for what it is -- a more or less hysterical neurosis rather than a legitimate political position. It follows convention in the use of Greek roots in describing specific mental afflictions. "Hoplon" is the Greek word for "instrument," but refers synonymously to "weapon" since the earliest and principal instruments were weapons. Phobos is Greek for "terror" and medically denotes unreasoning panic rather than normal fear. Thus hoplophobia is a mental disturbance characterized by irrational aversion to weapons, as opposed to justified apprehension about those who may wield them. The word has not become common, though twenty years is perhaps too short a time in which to test it, but I am nevertheless convinced that it has merit. We read of "gun grabbers" and "anti-gun nuts" but these slang terms do not face up to the reasons why such people behave the way they do. They do not adequately suggest that reason, logic, and truth can have no effect upon one who is irrational on the point under discussion. You cannot say calmly "Come, let us reason together" to a hoplophobe because that is what he is -- a hoplophobe. He is not just one who holds an opposing view, he is an obsessive neurotic. You can speak, write, and illustrate the merits of the case until you drop dead, and no matter how good you are his mind will not be changed. A victim of hydrophobia will die, horribly, rather than accept the water his body desperately needs. A victim of hoplophobia will die, probably, before he will accept the fallacy of his emotional fixation for what it is.

Have you noted that whenever an assassination is committed with a rifle, our journalistic hoplophobes clamor for further prohibitions on pistols? A pistol is a defensive weapon; a rifle is an offensive weapon. Yet the hoplophobes always attack pistols first because they feel that pistols are somehow nastier than rifles. (Though rifles are pretty nasty, too. They will get to those later.) This is the age of the "gut reaction" -that crutch of intellectual cripples -- and for an interesting number of commentators it is not even embarrassing to admit that actually thinking about anything important is just too much trouble. Some of our most ubiquitous and highly paid social-problem columnists are egregious examples of this.

Not long ago a staff member of the Chicago Tribune held forth at some length about how the color gatefolds in outdoor magazines exemplified the same sniggering depravity that we find in the pornographic press, substituting guns for girls. What a sewer of a mind this man displays! It is undeniable that both a man-made work of art and a beautiful woman are manifestations of God's blessing, but to imply that our admiration for them is obscene is to give oneself away. For some it indeed may be, but the rest of us need no advice from such. (I had thought that the fad to fantasize everything into a Freudian sex-symbol had gone out of vogue prior to World War II, but obviously there are a good many who never got the word.)

The essence of the affliction is the belief that instruments cause acts. It may be that certain degenerate human beings are so far gone that they will use something just because it is there -- a match, for instance. (I saw a bumper sticker in the Rockies that admonished "Prevent Forest Fires. Register Matches!") One who will burn people because he has a match is the same as one who will shoot people because he has a gun, but the hoplophobe zeroes in on guns because he is -- let's face it -- irrational. He will answer this by saying that we need matches (and cars, and motorcycles, and power saws, et cetera) but we do not need guns. He will not accept the idea that you may indeed need your guns, because he hates guns. He is afflicted by the grotesque notion that tools have a will of their own. He may admit that safe driving is a matter of individual responsibility, but he rejects the parallel in the matter of weapons. This may not be insanity, but it is clearly related to it.

One cannot rationally hate or fear an inanimate object. Neither can he rationally hate or fear an object because of its designed purpose. Whether one approves of capital punishment or not, one cannot rationally fear a hemp rope. One who did, possibly because he once narrowly escaped hanging, would generally be referred to a shrink. When the most prominent hoplophobe in the United States Senate says that he abhors firearms because their purpose is to put bullets through things, he reinforces the impressions that many have formed about his capacity to reason.

My point -- and I hope it is clear -- is that hoplophobia is a mental disturbance rather than a point of view. Differences of opinion -- on economic policy, or forced integration, or the morality of abortion, or the neutron bomb -- these we may hope to resolve by discussion. But we cannot so resolve a phobia. The mentally ill we cannot reach. But we can identify a form of mental illness for what it is, and so separate its victims from the policy considerations of reasonable people.

The root of the evil is the unprincipled attempt to gain votes by appealing to the emotions of the emotionally disturbed. Few reasonable politicians dare to take on the Second Amendment, even in the Eastern Megalopolis. (One prominent left-liberal told a New Yorker interviewer that he "would rather be a deer, in season, than to take on 'the gun lobby'!") But if, as is the case with the aforementioned senator, the politician is already a hopeless hoplophobe, his advisers must turn him loose to appeal to his constituency of crazies, since their jobs depend on it. "Go to it, Senator! The nuts are all with you."

This is something we who prize our traditional liberties must face. Convincing the uninterested is the very essence of politics, in a two-party system. It is up to us to do that by demonstrating that hoplophobia is a disease, and to call upon all reasonable people to reject it as a basis for the formulation of policy.

Culled from: "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth", Pages 16-19.

 

[Eisernkreuz]

OK ok ok, stop with your "logic" and compelling arguments, this is the Kitchen Sink!!

 

[Rogue]

Glocks are the only handgun at this time to accept the advanced Homeboi Nyte Sites. Nuf SAID!

 

[atek3]

When I was out in the desert We had a torso sized steel gong 50 yrs. away. I hit it 14/15 times with my XD40 sideways...
as long as you have can line up the sights with the target, and press the trigger without disrupting said alignment you can hit anything, from any position

atek3

 

[KIDRR]

Damn, every time we have these arguments with Webber I keep forgetting the guy isn't even old enough to have a hand gun, much less own one!