theAmazingKickstand
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^^^that ones cool but the gearbox explodes if you push the gas pedal to far.
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Chevy Camero vs. Ford Mustang; which has bigger ballz?
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ohio
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Exactly. Because it handles.
The Mustang is one of the must un-fun cars I've ever driven. The fact that it'll do well at the drag strip or track for the price are completely irrelevant to me, because the driving experience is less engaging than a 25 year old pickup truck (literally, my 87 'runner had vastly superior feel and tracking). When everything I, as a driver, touch (gas, brakes, steering wheel, seat, stereo) feels like shit in use, no amount of spec sheet racing is going to redeem the car.
Europeans and Japanese seem to get that. Americans don't. So when magazines start saying an American car stacks up to imports, I assume they mean the car provides some degree of feel and an engaging driving experience. I assumed wrong. That is my only point in this thread.
theAmazingKickstand
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Save your breath. Deaf ears.
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What kind of sample size of American VS imports are you dealing with?
The new Toyota stuff is very low in interior quality. Nissan, pretty decent. Audi, BMW? Initially, excellent. Over time, average. Mercedes, very good over time. Cadillac, decent over time. Chevrolet, average to decent over time. Ford, pretty decent over time. Hyundai, very good over time.
Of course it all depends on what someone is looking for in an automobile. The BMW/ Audi product is absolute garbage in the higher (meaning 60K +) milleage range. The Japanese stuff (Acura, Nissan, Lexus) is verty good, sans Toyota. Some Hondas aren't the best either. The American stuff is quite good to the higher mile range, depending on what it is. Take a look at a 100K mile Audi interior and then look at a 300C interior. the 300C is not near as nice, but holds up much, much better.
How do I know? We go through a fair amount of cars and as my hobby, I crawl into alot of these at the finance auctions, etc. The #1 problem with ALL the luxury cars? that muted black coating on steering wheels/ door pulls, etc always peels off. Doesn't matter if it's on a 2008 BMW or 2007 silverado, it always does it. Some manufacturers will cover it. Audi will not. BMW will not. Infiniti Will. Chevrolet will.
Go figure...
TheRobSJ
May lose 10mm sockets if distracted
A car that doesn't handle for shit can be fun too. As much fun as a Mini is to toss through an S-turn, you can have just as much fun sliding a big heavy 2005 GTO through the same section.
What Mustang did you drive? A beat to hell, cowl flexing, Hertz rental V6 convertible? Yeah there's no driver's car there. If you drove a new 5.0 with the Brembo brakes and stiff suspension and still think that it isn't fun, then I dunno what to tell you. I guess enjoy the 4Runner.
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Different strokes for different folks...but that's why we always go back to laptimes. Lap times don't care about the interior, the country of origin, nor much else except how fast is the vehicle. All the rest, to a bonafide performance enthusiast (and thus, winner) is justification on why someone prefers something other than the segment leader, or better said, something slower.
We can compete evenly when it comes down to a number. When it comes to an subjective profile, we're all on different pages.
We can compete evenly when it comes down to a number. When it comes to an subjective profile, we're all on different pages.
TheRobSJ
May lose 10mm sockets if distracted
I've been in a lot of new Camrys and rented a 2011 Camry to go to San Diego not even a year ago. Hated that car so much. The transmission was kinda dumb and hunted for gears every so often and the engine had no character whatsoever. And I was seriously underwhelmed by what Toyota has got going on the inside there. Lots of sharp unfinished edges on the trim and just immediately felt like a rental car. Which it was...but I got it with less than 1k miles on it. Sad state for Toyota that I would have much rather done the 1000 mile trip in a Chevy Malibu than the Camry.
Lexus gets you away from the cheap feel but they still have no character to them. Get behind the wheel of a new ES350, and yeah there's wood and nice feeling leather, but it just doesn't have anything to give a shit about. It's not for everyone, but flashy while still being nice interiors like Audi, Cadillac, and Acura are doing
Have also gotten a Nissan Altima a couple times as a rental and it has a much nicer look and feel to everything in there.
TheRobSJ
May lose 10mm sockets if distracted
Exactly. I've heard and read an endless barrage about how cheap the Corvette interior is over the years. Yet when the same people talk about an Ariel Atom, the interior isn't a gripe at all despite the fact they're pretty much just in a seat on a pipe rack with a little more than just go kart controls.
If you look at an all out performance machine like the LeMans racecar Corvette, there's no creature comforts at all. But if you had the chance to drive it, the last thing you'd be talking about afterwards were how rough the interior looked.
People don't really buy cars like Corvettes/Camaros, Challengers, Mustangs, or even STi/Evos because they want the best tactile feel they can get or the smoothest shifter there is. They just want something that goes fast. Period. You want the speed and all the refinement? Spend at least twice as much. But all that extra leather and "feel" don't get them around or down a track any faster.
ohio
Active member
Sample size - nothing as extensive as someone who's worked in the industry or at a dealer, but I've driven a fair number of cars over the last 15 years. But it's really not important because all I need to know is that the mustang felt worse and was less fun with vaguer steering and more body roll than a 10 year old station wagon and a 20 year old pickup truck. Do I really need to compare the driving feel to the entire BMW lineup to know that sucks?
Definitely not arguing quality and longevity. Simply feel - which is what I assume magazines are referring to when they say that an American car has "caught up to the Europeans." I know they're not referring to durability, since the Euros don't really have that.
Not sure why you think the interior is important to me. The interior in the mustang was much nicer than the subie and toyota, but the driving experience still blew. I'm not complaining because I wasn't coddled in fine leather. I'm complaining because the car rode like my grandpa's cutlass ciera.
A low mileage (maybe 2k mi?) base coupe. Like I said, the motor was the one bright spot. It may be better with decent brakes and stiffer springs, but if it's the same steering I still wouldn't drive it with your dick.
For a road car, lap times are irrelevant to me. I'm not racing anyone, and if I can get more fun with less tickets that's a good thing.
I would absolutely consider a Mustang GT as a track car, because I would need to pull the power steering and stereo and replace the seats, brakes, and suspension - basically correct everything that's wrong with it - and I wouldn't feel bad about it because all of those parts were crap to begin with.
edit:
to further clarify what I mean by handling - I have had the opportunity to drive some of the cars rated best handling of all time, despite not having the best track and drag numbers of their time. The Porsche 951 (actually did have some of the best numbers in its day), the NSX, Integra GSR and the E36 M3. I believe I'm using the same definition as those magazine editors and it does not equal skidpad numbers or lap times. The Mustang would smoke the GSR, and probably beat the 951 and M3... but if I had a few hours to go have fun in the twisties, the Mustang would be my last choice.
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theAmazingKickstand
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E36 M3 is one of the very best street going cars I've ever driven. (comparing to cars I'd want to get into every morning).
The funny part is most folks who get a "good" BMW or Porsche are just happy to drive it. Folks who get a Mustang or Corvette are happy to go around with paper specs telling everyone how happy they are with their car that's cheaper and BETTER....LOOOOOKKKK!!!!!!!......BETTER!!!!!!!! than the Porsche or BMW.
Yes there are fanboys who'll still tell you their new $70k car is super BMW is awesome and fuel pumps dont go out and turbo's work flawlessly bla bla.
......funny you see the same type of owners in cycling and motorcycling.
The funny part is most folks who get a "good" BMW or Porsche are just happy to drive it. Folks who get a Mustang or Corvette are happy to go around with paper specs telling everyone how happy they are with their car that's cheaper and BETTER....LOOOOOKKKK!!!!!!!......BETTER!!!!!!!! than the Porsche or BMW.
Yes there are fanboys who'll still tell you their new $70k car is super BMW is awesome and fuel pumps dont go out and turbo's work flawlessly bla bla.
......funny you see the same type of owners in cycling and motorcycling.
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weasel
Eradicator
Dexif
I just saw a brand new Camero in my parking lot. Damn that's one big ugly car.
theAmazingKickstand
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Dexif
I just saw a brand new Camero in my parking lot. Damn that's one big ugly car.
Im on and off shoping for an E46 convertible but that's only cuz I can't find any E36's in pristine like new shape. Like TheRob's vette, by now it's an overabused shitbox that needs a ton of stuff replaced to make it pleasent to drive again.
Brand new vs brand new I'd go for an E36 M3.
And yea, the new CamEro looks like it should hang over the doors of Hotwheels Corp. New mustang looks really bad around the rear wheels. For $17k I won't see it from the shitty drivers seat though.
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weasel
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Verts don't belong on the track 
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Ok, the NSX is NOT a good handling car. In fact that thing plain sucks at any sort of spirited pace...too heavy, too small of pie plates on it, etc. I'm begining to think that you're more in the subjective world and Rob and I are in the objective world, relative to cars. If you don't want a car that is the best it can be in terms of performance, when performance is the goal (few hours to have fun in the twisties), then I'm not sure what the measurement is. There's lots and great cars that will give a driver a rewarding experience and they're not Mustangs...but they also aren't very quick either. A WRX, Evo, and GSR come to mind. Fun, yeah. Lapping quickly in their pricing segment? Not so much...
theAmazingKickstand
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^^^WIN!!!!!! cept that its $55k and has a bunch of shit bolted to the enigine that breaks.
I heard those are only offered with a clutch pedal wich is kinda neat. Really dont know what BMW is doing these days.
They used to make quality long lasting cars that were fun to drive. Then they realized there are way more Lexus buyers that want ugly soft cars so they started doing that.....but they replaced Lexus quality with Porsche quality.
So now theyre selling ugly, complicated, poorly designed, soft, expensive cars?
I heard those are only offered with a clutch pedal wich is kinda neat. Really dont know what BMW is doing these days.
They used to make quality long lasting cars that were fun to drive. Then they realized there are way more Lexus buyers that want ugly soft cars so they started doing that.....but they replaced Lexus quality with Porsche quality.
So now theyre selling ugly, complicated, poorly designed, soft, expensive cars?
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Porsche quality (aside from the Cayenne) has been stellar, of late. All those Euro things are designed to last to $60K, then start breaking like a Russian Sub. And $55K...someone better enjoy reverse cowboy anal!
The Mustang isn't in the same league, but it'll get you more pussy. Even chicks know that a 1 series means you just havent' made it and most likely, it's leased!
The Mustang isn't in the same league, but it'll get you more pussy. Even chicks know that a 1 series means you just havent' made it and most likely, it's leased!
theAmazingKickstand
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haha sorry,
I mean Porsche quality from 1984 to like 2004ish.....Im not up on exact data on cars I dont want to own anymore.
lookin good in spandex has gotten me way more hot chicks than silly cars.
Badass cars are like getting big muscles at the gym. Most girls don't care. Guys only do it to impress other guys......
I mean Porsche quality from 1984 to like 2004ish.....Im not up on exact data on cars I dont want to own anymore.
lookin good in spandex has gotten me way more hot chicks than silly cars.
Badass cars are like getting big muscles at the gym. Most girls don't care. Guys only do it to impress other guys......
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