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Goodbye Small Gas Engines after 2024 - Cali Ban

This is the most accurate statement in this entire thread. The major population centers like to make rules to enforce on the rural areas with zero concern for them and how it will impact them. There's a lot more I'd like to say, but I'm afraid it'll get political.

I agree completely. It's interesting to be on this forum and listen to the opinions of everyone here living the city life. Working in the bay area in the defense industry and living in Mt. View for a few years was quite enjoyable in my younger days. Now, with the traffic, housing expense, rude folks, no thanks...

I find it interesting that folks living in such a densely populated, concrete and asphalt wasteland are worried about two stroke engines? There is more pollution, waste water, run off chemicals produced per acre there than 100's of acres of farm land. Not sure if I could live there again. You folks who moved out to the foothills look outside your house and figure out how many feet of cord you'll need to weed wack and cut a fire break around your property to keep it from burning up.....

It understandable to want to improve our situation, I sure get tired of dealing with all the smoke from the fires, it sure seems to me that this would be a better place to put our efforts into cleaning up the air...
 
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Has anyone actually seen this study showing an hour of blower time equals a 1000 mile car trip in pollution?

2 strokes pollute more than 4 strokes in some toxins and less in others. You want to spin the tale to make a 50cc 2 stroke engine look awful, you can do it. And of course there are a lot of small engine equipment. You don't use one tool to do everything, like you do with a car. And will someone explain how the hell you can have a portable electric generator with zero emissions. Little windmills on top?

As someone who actually owns 2-stroke, 4-stroke, wired, and battery powered lawn/yard tools, I can confidently state that, as usual, our State legislatures and Governor are rather ill-informed or dishonest. As with many in the general public who have zero experience and zero statistics for their ideas of what works and what doesn't. I don't even use TWO GALLONS of gasoline to power a 2-stroke leaf blower, chain-saw, weed whacker and hedge trimmer in a year. IN AN ENTIRE YEAR.

The electric chain saw that I use to have was a POS. The Ryobi battery leaf blower is okay, but not as efficient as the two-stroke that I own. The battery lasts about 15 minutes. The gas in the McCulloch about two hours. The electric hedge trimmer that I own is also a POS. The 2 stroke Ryobi is okay.

In closing: I have a McCulloch 2-stroke chainsaw that is over 30 years old. It has NEVER failed me. It is the best powered anything that I have ever owned. I have a 4 stroke lawn tractor that I bought in Tahoe on the Nevada side because CARB had a ridiculous evaporated tank law, so to get the 26 HP tractor I had to go out of State. Stupid waste of time and energy, because CA feeds on it's own self-righteous insanity without common sense anywhere in the thought process. Just like this Law.
 
I agree completely. It's interesting to be on this forum and listen to the opinions of everyone here living the city life. Working in the bay area in the defense industry and living in Mt. View for a few years was quite enjoyable in my younger days. Now, with the traffic, housing expense, rude folks, no thanks...

I find it interesting that folks living in such a densely populated, concrete and asphalt wasteland are worried about two stroke engines? There is more pollution, waste water, run off chemicals produced per acre there than 100's of acres of farm land. Not sure if I could live there again. You folks who moved out to the foothills look outside your house and figure out how many feet of cord you'll need to weed wack and cut a fire break around your property to keep it from burning up.....

It understandable to want to improve our situation, I sure get tired of dealing with all the smoke from the fires, it sure seems to me that this would be a better place to put our efforts into cleaning up the air...

It makes WAY more sense to look at pollution per person, not pollution per acre, and people living in cities or more urban settings tend to have a much smaller carbon footprint than people living in rural settings.
 
Has anyone actually seen this study showing an hour of blower time equals a 1000 mile car trip in pollution?

2 strokes pollute more than 4 strokes in some toxins and less in others. You want to spin the tale to make a 50cc 2 stroke engine look awful, you can do it. And of course there are a lot of small engine equipment. You don't use one tool to do everything, like you do with a car. And will someone explain how the hell you can have a portable electric generator with zero emissions. Little windmills on top?

As someone who actually owns 2-stroke, 4-stroke, wired, and battery powered lawn/yard tools, I can confidently state that, as usual, our State legislatures and Governor are rather ill-informed or dishonest. As with many in the general public who have zero experience and zero statistics for their ideas of what works and what doesn't. I don't even use TWO GALLONS of gasoline to power a 2-stroke leaf blower, chain-saw, weed whacker and hedge trimmer in a year. IN AN ENTIRE YEAR.

The electric chain saw that I use to have was a POS. The Ryobi battery leaf blower is okay, but not as efficient as the two-stroke that I own. The battery lasts about 15 minutes. The gas in the McCulloch about two hours. The electric hedge trimmer that I own is also a POS. The 2 stroke Ryobi is okay.

In closing: I have a McCulloch 2-stroke chainsaw that is over 30 years old. It has NEVER failed me. It is the best powered anything that I have ever owned. I have a 4 stroke lawn tractor that I bought in Tahoe on the Nevada side because CARB had a ridiculous evaporated tank law, so to get the 26 HP tractor I had to go out of State. Stupid waste of time and energy, because CA feeds on it's own self-righteous insanity without common sense anywhere in the thought process. Just like this Law.

I wonder how many gallons of gas it would take to recharge your lawn equipment over a year, because I'm willing to bet that that's how most gardeners are going to do it. Use a generator in between stops to recharge. They ain't going out and buying new trucks to recharge their shit. They can't afford it.

This state is full of people who are hiding behind all sorts of shit who ain't nothing but NIMBY's.
 
As someone who actually owns 2-stroke, 4-stroke, wired, and battery powered lawn/yard tools, I can confidently state that, as usual, our State legislatures and Governor are rather ill-informed or dishonest.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. :laughing

Speculation on my part, but I doubt many of these people do much of their own yard work.
 
I wonder how many gallons of gas it would take to recharge your lawn equipment over a year, because I'm willing to bet that that's how most gardeners are going to do it. Use a generator in between stops to recharge. They ain't going out and buying new trucks to recharge their shit. They can't afford it.

This state is full of people who are hiding behind all sorts of shit who ain't nothing but NIMBY's.

This is really where the divide between country mouse and city mouse occurs. I'll agree the city folk don't always consider the ramifications, but the country folk seem to be conveniently ignorant of scale. The real problem is that people are like rats. Nobody cares if they shit where you can't see it, but given sufficient numbers they create a nuisance.

Most independent gardeners in our neighborhood use equipment that is at lest a decade old. It'll be years if not decades before they are impacted. The corporate landscape services, who drive newer fleet trucks most definitely can afford this. And they're fully capable of charging the equipment without resorting to gas generators (not that I believe anyone would actually be that stupid)
 
Can’t you just buy one now (chain saw) and keep it alive with maintenance??

This is a can’t buy vs can’t use deal right?
 
Oobus and mseth...

Thank you for a little reality!:thumbup You speak the truth.
 
Can’t you just buy one now (chain saw) and keep it alive with maintenance??

This is a can’t buy vs can’t use deal right?

Remember the gas leaf blower ban in Palo alto.....
Then they switched to alcohol!...:laughing...
 
Quoting link for easier reference for others lurking and reading.

It's in the article originally quoted in this thread.

California has more than 16.7 million of these small engines in the state, about 3 million more than the number of passenger cars on the road. California was the first government in the world to adopt emission standards for these small engines in 1990. But since then, emissions in cars have vastly improved compared with smaller engines.

Now, state officials say running a gas-powered leaf blower for one hour emits the same amount of pollution as driving a 2017 Toyota Camry from Los Angeles to Denver, a distance of about 1,100 miles (1,770 kilometers).
Nitpicking points:

1. Gas powered leaf blower is still a fairly wide range and no info on 2 stroke vs 4 stroke vs size etc.
2.
Gov. Gavin Newsom signed a new law on Saturday that orders state regulators to ban the sale of new gas-powered equipment using small off-road engines, a broad category that includes generators, lawn equipment and pressure washers.
Key words in red. We're not just talking about 50cc 2-strokes here.
3. They, too, show no source for their claim. I'd like to see the source data.

Fossil fuels are very heavily subsidized, on their own those subsidies skew a comparison unfairly in favor of fossil fuel based engines. Even more of a problem, the cost of dealing with the pollution is pressed onto the public, not the user. A heavy tax on the pollution wouldn't skew a comparison, it would make the comparison more fair.

(https://www.vtpi.org/tca/tca0510.pdf)
To clarify on this, this study is only looking at air pollution costs. By 'non climate change costs' they are talking about the other effects of the pollution, public health, and the like.

Fair point on fossil subsidies, but I still draw issue with continuing a bad habit just because someone else is doing it.

If we were to put a fair tax on the pollutants from these tools, that would mean at the lower bound, about a $15 tax per hour of use for these tools. Just to make up for the cost of the public dealing with that pollution. If that were charged to the user instead of eaten up by the public, how long before everyone transitions to the option that does not pollute.

$15 / hr tax...for a piece of a equipment being used by someone probably making around that wage or less. And per your own words that's the lower bound.

Scale has been mentioned in the thread here.

OP's link above said:
California has more than 16.7 million of these small engines in the state, about 3 million more than the number of passenger cars on the road.

Per Statista:
In 2019, California had the most automobile registrations: almost 15 million such vehicles were registered in the most populous U.S. federal state. California also had the highest number of registered motor vehicles overall: more than 30 million registrations.

So, at scale...we already have significant discrepancies in the data.

If there are 16 million "small off road engines" and that includes go-karts, dirt bikes, supermotos, scooters, etc, and only 500,000 gas powered leaf blowers, power washers, chainsaws, hedge trimmers, etc, do you not think that's an important distinction here?

Each of those individually 1v1 may account for more pollution than a 2017 Camry, but in the aggregate if there are 10 million Camrys / similar vs 500,000 leaf blowers, well, I know which ones are polluting more (and that's not even getting into their example of driving to Denver vs sitting in traffic on 101 for 4 hours a day).

In summary : I'd like to see the data sources and how they came up with these numbers, because I already feel like I'm being significantly misled with this article. Not that that should be any surprise.
 
It makes WAY more sense to look at pollution per person, not pollution per acre, and people living in cities or more urban settings tend to have a much smaller carbon footprint than people living in rural settings.

Good point. There are efficiencies to population density.

Maybe the burn for me comes from having the population living in what I believe is an unhealthy, polluted, concrete and consumer driven city dictating to us folks in the country(which to me is a much healthier environment to live) how we can run our businesses so they can feel good about helping the environment when they live in the mess that is the bay area? Why not ban gas operated cars on 101 for one day per month, and then the next week ban them on 280? Make a motorcycle only lane mandatory.
 
Another solution to small engine pollution issue is FI/DI and catalytic converters on all of them. The cost new may double and the market would sort it all out. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was considered and found to be unreasonable. I also wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t considered because someone is lobbying hard for electrics.
 
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Or Capn Kirk goin up toward Uranus in a blue dildo just to come back a few minutes later and hug Bezos. There ain't enough palm for mah face.

But back on track, help me strategize: does this mean Stihls and Huskys will never go on sale here now? Or will there be a run on em because....Every once in a while, there is a sale on Stihls and I always put off getting one but truly feel the need now....


If you're going to buy one, now is probably better than later. Especially with all the Ace Hardware stores becoming Stihl dealers. Personally, I like the smaller independent saw/mower shops, but I'm sure Ace won't be a terrible place to get a deal. If you're actually shopping, keep weight and requirements in mind because running a bigger saw can get tiring.

If you're not averse to used saws, there are some great ones to be had on the used market. I found an early 80's Echo CS-650-evl a while ago at auction. It just needed a carb rebuild (like everything older running modern fuel) and now it's a tank. It's kind of unique in that it's pretty torquey- like a V-twin superbike running in a class of inline fours. I also have a smaller 15 year old? Stihl and a tiny Homelite XL bugger from the 60s or 70s. The Homelite is just a quick brush/branch reacher, and although it leaks everywhere and probably isn't worth going through, it still runs and is handy.
 
If you're going to buy one, now is probably better than later. Especially with all the Ace Hardware stores becoming Stihl dealers. Personally, I like the smaller independent saw/mower shops, but I'm sure Ace won't be a terrible place to get a deal. If you're actually shopping, keep weight and requirements in mind because running a bigger saw can get tiring.

If you're not averse to used saws, there are some great ones to be had on the used market. I found an early 80's Echo CS-650-evl a while ago at auction. It just needed a carb rebuild (like everything older running modern fuel) and now it's a tank. It's kind of unique in that it's pretty torquey- like a V-twin superbike running in a class of inline fours. I also have a smaller 15 year old? Stihl and a tiny Homelite XL bugger from the 60s or 70s. The Homelite is just a quick brush/branch reacher, and although it leaks everywhere and probably isn't worth going through, it still runs and is handy.

Thanks for tips. I do have upcoming situations at home requiring a purchase. I noticed the Ace changeover too and was surprised at sudden availability of a coveted brand which has the weird circumstance of being more available in rural than urban areas..
 
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Good point. There are efficiencies to population density.

Maybe the burn for me comes from having the population living in what I believe is an unhealthy, polluted, concrete and consumer driven city dictating to us folks in the country(which to me is a much healthier environment to live) how we can run our businesses so they can feel good about helping the environment when they live in the mess that is the bay area? Why not ban gas operated cars on 101 for one day per month, and then the next week ban them on 280? Make a motorcycle only lane mandatory.

I've spent my life split between Bay Area and small towns in the West and Midwest. That includes a lot of time growing up working on farms. Saying this because I think I have a pretty good handle on the real differences between urban and rural life. And to be fair, I cannot help but have a bit of the eye roll when I hear people who have probably never lived outside of a major metro suburb talk about rural life.

Your feelings on what a "healthy environment" is are your own opinions, and really aren't backed by facts. You generally have fewer choices in food and healthcare, and often fewer available activities. Trust me, even in CO where the outdoor activities are awesome, you're still going to spend a lot of time sitting on your ass indoors during the winter. Once you get to the cities, you'll still have traffic and pollution to deal with that keeps getting worse.
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/die-young-move-to-rural-america
Rural America has long claimed a reputation as a healthy place to live.

But the truth is that rural areas in the United States generally lag behind urban areas in many aspects of health.

As for "imposing their will": My observations are that most rural areas are heavily subsidized by their urban peers. The fact you have power, roads, and fire protection are largely due to past state and federal government programs. It's largely just a form of welfare.

What I think it really comes down to for most people isn't so much the difference between urban and rural, but housing prices and priorities. It's not so much that housing is more expensive (of course it is), but that people are programmed to go after the big homes, flashy cars, and end up signing up for a shit commute. Then to top it off they seem unhappy they can't go shooting in their back yard, start a bonfire, or go chop down a tree.
 
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Another solution to small engine pollution issue is FI/DI and catalytic converters on all of them. The cost new may double and the market would sort it all out. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was considered and found to be unreasonable. I also wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t considered because someone is lobbying hard for electrics.

Cats dont well on 2 strokes.
Besides clogging from oil mix there's performance issues.

The catalytic substrate represents a major obstruction to the flow of exhaust gas, which hinders the progression of the main exhausted pulse, and in turn effects the scavenging of the cylinder and ultimately the performance of the engine.
 
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