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Goodbye Small Gas Engines after 2024 - Cali Ban

So then many of these issues can be forced upon a local populace in favor of them and not the entire state as a whole.

This is always the dilemma. In this case I think the problem is easy to understand if you contrast a ban on use vs purchase. A ban on use has harsh and immediate impact, while a ban on purchase allows for a migration of old technology to new technology. The former can and is being done in some localities. The latter really only works if it is widespread
 
So then many of these issues can be forced upon a local populace in favor of them and not the entire state as a whole.

I guess this is similar to how senators from BFE fuck millions of citizens out of their natural rights to pander to culture war issues?

Picked up brand new two stroke saws 1-3 years ago for occasional tree work. This bodes well for my collection of older saws. Has the panic buying started yet?

Ag and business will be using and rebuilding these tools for many years. That said, municipalities are gearing up to ban gas tools without prodding from the state. My dad just completed his yard care collection, all LiPo. It’s better for the user, the neighbors, and the environment. Our HOA lawn service converted their mowers to LPG. Crazy looking setup, but it burns way cleaner. These changes will help low wage workers too.

The only downside is the ill-informed blind rage from people not directly affected by a non-ban that won’t change their setups in their lifetimes.
 
So then many of these issues can be forced upon a local populace in favor of them and not the entire state as a whole.

Why should a minority in BFE be able to further climate change simply because it is a little inconvenient?
 
Why should a minority in BFE be able to further climate change simply because it is a little inconvenient?

This law has nothing to do with climate change and everything to do with pollution. If it did, then the 1,100 mile Camry would be producing roughly 80 times the "pollution" as the 50cc two stroke.

1,100 miles / 25 mpg freeway = 44 gallons.
50cc motor run for 1 hour = 1/2 gallon.

44 gallons/(1/2) gallon = 88 times more CO2 output by Camery than 50cc two strock.

The pollution that is being refered too in the state's 50cc vs Camery comparison is hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen, not CO2. While both HCs and NOs have a global warming potential higher than CO2, the amount output by the dirty 2-stroke is too little to be reasonably compared to the GWP of the CO2 put out by the Camery going to Denver.

Yet another example of the BFE's being impacted by the ignorance of the metro population.

Flip
 
Nitpicking points:

1. Gas powered leaf blower is still a fairly wide range and no info on 2 stroke vs 4 stroke vs size etc.
2.
Key words in red. We're not just talking about 50cc 2-strokes here.
3. They, too, show no source for their claim. I'd like to see the source data.
It is a broad category, I don't think I claimed it was not. You are correct that we aren't just talking about 50cc 2 strokes.

I looked into the source. Instead of the not very clear 'state officials', The article should have said CARB. CARB does it's own research on pollution. The EPA also recently reported that the engines are unusually high sources of Benzene and other Carcinogens.
Fair point on fossil subsidies, but I still draw issue with continuing a bad habit just because someone else is doing it.
IMO Subsidies are not a bad habit, it really depends on what the subsidies are for. At this point, maintaining subsidies for fossil fuels basically extends how long we will use them as a primary energy source. That's bad. Subsidies that get people to more quickly embrace a better, cleaner solution is good. We use incentives and disincentives all the time, no reason to stop that now.

Like, I think that we should make commuter level public transit, busses, BART, etc. either very cheap or completely free at point of service, and expand the locations they serve, to encourage people to use them to commute instead of using cars. That would absolutely require a subsidy, but it would also probably lead to a pretty substantial reduction in car use, in favor of much more efficient and less polluting (per user) mass transit.
$15 / hr tax...for a piece of a equipment being used by someone probably making around that wage or less. And per your own words that's the lower bound.
Yea, it sounds ridiculous, that's the point. The amount of emissions these engines produce is ridiculous, and if we actually made people pay to offset the pollution they produce no one would use these engines.
Per Statista:


So, at scale...we already have significant discrepancies in the data.

If there are 16 million "small off road engines" and that includes go-karts, dirt bikes, supermotos, scooters, etc, and only 500,000 gas powered leaf blowers, power washers, chainsaws, hedge trimmers, etc, do you not think that's an important distinction here?

Each of those individually 1v1 may account for more pollution than a 2017 Camry, but in the aggregate if there are 10 million Camrys / similar vs 500,000 leaf blowers, well, I know which ones are polluting more (and that's not even getting into their example of driving to Denver vs sitting in traffic on 101 for 4 hours a day).

In summary : I'd like to see the data sources and how they came up with these numbers, because I already feel like I'm being significantly misled with this article. Not that that should be any surprise.

To be clear, I don't think that Statista is always a good source, they often don't do a good job at saying what their data actually means. That being said, I don't think that the distinction between what the engine is used in is important. The law just looks at the type of engines. the SORE engines, as a whole, in California, emit an average of '16.8 tons per day of NOx and 125 tons per day of ROG', more than the total emissions of all the cars on the road. What does it matter if that engine is in a leaf blower or a dirt bike? That being said, these engines are mostly in the lawn tools. Motorcycling, especially off road and with engines that would meet the definition, is a very niche hobby.
 
I've spent my life split between Bay Area and small towns in the West and Midwest. m unhappy they can't go shooting in their back yard, start a bonfire, or go chop down a tree.

This is what I was looking for, very good points! Shortened up to not pollute the thread more.
Found my place in the country and am super happy with the lifestyle. I wish everyone else can find happiness and satisfaction with where they are..
 
I've spent my life split between Bay Area and small towns in the West and Midwest. That includes a lot of time growing up working on farms. Saying this because I think I have a pretty good handle on the real differences between urban and rural life. And to be fair, I cannot help but have a bit of the eye roll when I hear people who have probably never lived outside of a major metro suburb talk about rural life.

Your feelings on what a "healthy environment" is are your own opinions, and really aren't backed by facts. You generally have fewer choices in food and healthcare, and often fewer available activities. Trust me, even in CO where the outdoor activities are awesome, you're still going to spend a lot of time sitting on your ass indoors during the winter. Once you get to the cities, you'll still have traffic and pollution to deal with that keeps getting worse.
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/die-young-move-to-rural-america


As for "imposing their will": My observations are that most rural areas are heavily subsidized by their urban peers. The fact you have power, roads, and fire protection are largely due to past state and federal government programs. It's largely just a form of welfare.

What I think it really comes down to for most people isn't so much the difference between urban and rural, but housing prices and priorities. It's not so much that housing is more expensive (of course it is), but that people are programmed to go after the big homes, flashy cars, and end up signing up for a shit commute. Then to top it off they seem unhappy they can't go shooting in their back yard, start a bonfire, or go chop down a tree.

earlier this year we made the move up to the foothills. it’s been awesome - no apparent ‘rural’ chips on anyone’s shoulders. WRT the bolded, and our property - no shooting (too noisy), or bonfires (too risky), but WRT chopping down trees - if anyone is jonesing to do that, have a grove of about 30 young ponderosas that need to be thinned. looking to take down 15 or so. anyone wanting to play lumberjack-for-a-day is more than welcome!
 
earlier this year we made the move up to the foothills. it’s been awesome - no apparent ‘rural’ chips on anyone’s shoulders. WRT the bolded, and our property - no shooting (too noisy), or bonfires (too risky), but WRT chopping down trees - if anyone is jonesing to do that, have a grove of about 30 young ponderosas that need to be thinned. looking to take down 15 or so. anyone wanting to play lumberjack-for-a-day is more than welcome!
Just make sure that they're willing to trim and chop up the tree afterwards, not just cut them down and let them fall. :laughing
 
so what? way more people in this state live in the metro areas. also way more of the tax base in this state is in the metros as well.

This is straight out of "tyranny of the majority" playbook.

Fuck the little people who supply us with our things.

Amirite! :party
 
This is straight out of "tyranny of the majority" playbook.

Fuck the little people who supply us with our things.

Amirite! :party

The little people don't supply us with our things, trillion dollar multinational corporations and their overseas manufacturing plants do. :laughing

I have literally stood there and listened to these small town salt of the earth people from my hometown decry government spending all while pulling in a six figure salary from the Department of Energy. :twofinger
 
The little people don't supply us with our things, trillion dollar multinational corporations and their overseas manufacturing plants do. :laughing

I have literally stood there and listened to these small town salt of the earth people from my hometown decry government spending all while pulling in a six figure salary from the Department of Energy. :twofinger

:rofl

About as NIMBY, "I got mine" an attitude as you can get.

All them people in the Central Valley are making size figures! Fuck man, I gotta quit my job and move to Delano.

Weekends off again would be really nice.

You're clueless on what actually happens in this state my guy.

Again, tyranny of the majority, or something.

"Fucken NIMBY!!!:party"
 
There's gotta be an exemption for generators, but obnoxious, smelly 2-strokes can fuck right off.
 
earlier this year we made the move up to the foothills. it’s been awesome - no apparent ‘rural’ chips on anyone’s shoulders. WRT the bolded, and our property - no shooting (too noisy), or bonfires (too risky), but WRT chopping down trees - if anyone is jonesing to do that, have a grove of about 30 young ponderosas that need to be thinned. looking to take down 15 or so. anyone wanting to play lumberjack-for-a-day is more than welcome!

Did you get clearance from the county or the Forest Service to cut these down? Not sure in your area but there are some protected trees that can't be cut here in our area like oaks.... make sure you tell them no gas operated saws or chippers!
 
I've spent my life split between Bay Area and small towns in the West and Midwest. That includes a lot of time growing up working on farms. Saying this because I think I have a pretty good handle on the real differences between urban and rural life. And to be fair, I cannot help but have a bit of the eye roll when I hear people who have probably never lived outside of a major metro suburb talk about rural life.

Your feelings on what a "healthy environment" is are your own opinions, and really aren't backed by facts. You generally have fewer choices in food and healthcare, and often fewer available activities. Trust me, even in CO where the outdoor activities are awesome, you're still going to spend a lot of time sitting on your ass indoors during the winter. Once you get to the cities, you'll still have traffic and pollution to deal with that keeps getting worse.
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/die-young-move-to-rural-america


As for "imposing their will": My observations are that most rural areas are heavily subsidized by their urban peers. The fact you have power, roads, and fire protection are largely due to past state and federal government programs. It's largely just a form of welfare.

What I think it really comes down to for most people isn't so much the difference between urban and rural, but housing prices and priorities. It's not so much that housing is more expensive (of course it is), but that people are programmed to go after the big homes, flashy cars, and end up signing up for a shit commute. Then to top it off they seem unhappy they can't go shooting in their back yard, start a bonfire, or go chop down a tree.

As far as rural roads, you should do some research ;) most of them were not built by the state. You can start by googling the 1933 breed act if your are interested
 
As far as rural roads, you should do some research ;) most of them were not built by the state. You can start by googling the 1933 breed act if your are interested

I always like reading about history, but not following your point here. The Breed Act seems to be a state law establishing guidelines for secondary road construction. It's still paid for by taxes :dunno

BTW: I understand original roads in this country were privately funded. That has long since ceased to be the case, and especially in the context of large portions of the population moving to rural, especially woodland areas. I grew up driving dirt and gravel roads (many of which are/were regularly maintained). What you see more and more of now are paved roads to support what are effectively rural suburbs.
 
BTW: I understand original roads in this country were privately funded. That has long since ceased to be the case, and especially in the context of large portions of the population moving to rural, especially woodland areas. I grew up driving dirt and gravel roads (many of which are/were regularly maintained). What you see more and more of now are paved roads to support what are effectively rural suburbs.

It hasn't ceased to be the case where our rural property is located. The dirt roads are privately owned and (not) maintained.
 
This thread is one more straw of evidence proving the thesis of the long running circa 2017 ~'Tesla Model 3 is the end of the internal combustion engine'.

:later
 
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