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Low end torque OR high end power, which is worse for learning?

SFSV650 said:
Something about the instant and linear relation between the throttle and the RPM's makes it easier to modulate speed than something with more lag at the bottom end (the 250 and the VFR). When this much twist gives you this much go, and does so right away, it's a little easier not to inadvertently overdo it?

I've never tried a GixxaCBR6tona though, so I accept the likelihood that I am entirely wrong.
Click to expand...

You have it right. Plus, my V-Twin spools up to those higher revs at a markedly slower pace than my 600cc I4. It may only be a second or so difference through the torque curve, but the difference is FREAKING FOREVER coming out of the Carousel onto the dragstrip at Sears Point. On the street, though, that means more time to modulate hasty inputs.
 
Edit: Stan has pointed out that 600's are pretty flat on the torque curve, so take this post for the <2c it is worth :).

Its not the torque number in the table, you need to see a graph.

An easier to ride bike will have both low torque/hp but also the torque curve will be *smooth* and pretty much flat.

Supersports are peaky and the throttle response at any given revs can suddenly dump a bunch more power on you when it comes on cam, causing many issues.

Combine this with about 1/2 the throttle travel of a 650 or 250, suspension designed for aggressive competent riding, not newbie ham-fistedness, and very responsive brakes, and you have a bike that is made to be enjoyed by a competent rider, not a newb.

In my opinion the SV650 and similar make great 2nd bikes after you feel really confident on a nice light 250/300/500, and are great to ride long distances - very versatile. 600s make ok third bikes, and are primarily for shorter sporty rides or ideally the track.
 
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limey said:
Its not the torque number in the table, you need to see a graph.

...

Supersports are peaky and the throttle response at any given revs can suddenly dump a bunch more power on you when it comes on cam, causing many issues.
Click to expand...

peaky?? when it comes on the cam? :wtf

i think u need to see the graph. :p

8359998200_a13f4e52df.jpg
 
^^^ Fair play - my butt dyno is broken, or my memory is failing - its been a while since I swung a leg over a 4-banger :).

I also googled some SV650, Ninja 650R etc dyno charts and compared to the big 4 600's, and the 600 has a flatter torque curve than either of the twins. I've ridden all 6 bikes (but its been a couple of years since I sold my CBR600) and with my collective failing memory and faulty butt-dyno this is not what I imagined the curves would look like.

So... I guess it is largely the quantity of torque/power available that makes the bike feel a bit more of a wild beast under heavy throttle. I recalled more "2 strokeness" on the 4-bangers, but clearly the dyno charts don't bear that out.

Now back to wringing out my thumper...
 
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Reli said:
That chart compresses the torque curve so that you can see the full hp curve

If you looked at torque alone you would see that it isn't exactly a smooth curve......hell you can already see.
Click to expand...

Its still more linear than either the 650 V-twin or the 650 parallel twin on the Suzuki or the Kawk though :).
 
SFSV650 said:
FWIW, as a noob myself, I find the SV more manageable than the Ninja 250.

Something about the instant and linear relation between the throttle and the RPM's makes it easier to modulate speed than something with more lag at the bottom end (the 250 and the VFR). When this much twist gives you this much go, and does so right away, it's a little easier not to inadvertently overdo it?

I've never tried a GixxaCBR6tona though, so I accept the likelihood that I am entirely wrong.
Click to expand...

I can see that. My friend and I got our M1 together, and he went with the ninja 650 while I went with the 250. Maybe I'm biased :twofinger But the 250 was so light I was able to flick it around everywhere and had loads of fun. When I tried and jumped on his 650 it felt a little too upright (slightly more than the 250). Also with the 250, your less likely to get into trouble. :teeth
 
limey said:
Edit: Stan has pointed out that 600's are pretty flat on the torque curve, so take this post for the <2c it is worth :).

Its not the torque number in the table, you need to see a graph.

An easier to ride bike will have both low torque/hp but also the torque curve will be *smooth* and pretty much flat.

Supersports are peaky and the throttle response at any given revs can suddenly dump a bunch more power on you when it comes on cam, causing many issues.

Combine this with about 1/2 the throttle travel of a 650 or 250, suspension designed for aggressive competent riding, not newbie ham-fistedness, and very responsive brakes, and you have a bike that is made to be enjoyed by a competent rider, not a newb.

In my opinion the SV650 and similar make great 2nd bikes after you feel really confident on a nice light 250/300/500, and are great to ride long distances - very versatile. 600s make ok third bikes, and are primarily for shorter sporty rides or ideally the track.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with your Butt dyno...there are BARFers That have different likes,...And giving a big rats ass, about throttle response at RPM's that will be the RPM's on the city street, and some roads.

The 600 I4 has a stroke length that isn't a problem in torquesville, on a closed course race track..The place the engine was born for.
It is just plain Sucky, in traffic on the street...and not acceptable, for some other BARFers. That's just the way it is.
 
Most smaller displacement bikes, regardless of engine type, will work just fine for learning to ride. What you do want, though, is a friendly throttle response from idle to off idle. No herky-jerky response. Then it's a matter of proper right hand restraint. If a newbie accidently pins the throttle, it ain't gonna matter a hill of beans whether it's a 650 twin, a 600 four, or a 250 of some sort.
 
limey said:
^^^ Fair play - my butt dyno is broken, or my memory is failing - its been a while since I swung a leg over a 4-banger :).
Click to expand...

to be fair, i do own the Supersport w/ arguably the best low-end power and Lee's did a great job tuning it.

after i posted my graph, i went and looked at some for the current R6 and a lot of them support your statements :thumbup.

Reli said:
That chart compresses the torque curve so that you can see the full hp curve

If you looked at torque alone you would see that it isn't exactly a smooth curve......hell you can already see.
Click to expand...

the torque curve is def less smooth than the HP curve.

i wonder if any tuner would ever take a look at or supply a print-out of the derivative of the torque curve. then we'd really see how smooth it is.
 
Hooli said:
I did.

In that case, if you're going to make such a statement, be prepared to provide hard data to back it up so you make your points clear. :nerd
Click to expand...

Ok :thumbup


HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252

:p
 
Dude.. you are WAY over thinking this.. go ride.. OK? sheese...
 
When I got my first street bike I wheeled it the first time I tried to ride. The problem was that I was used to my 2 smoker and gave it about half the throttle and dumped the clutch. That bike had a little over 20 HP. :laughing

Poor clutch and throttle control is the problem. Assume the newbie will make input errors, then ask which engine, ergonomics, brakes, and suspension will be more forgiving. A bit of lag in the system can give the newbie a better chance of keeping it rubber side down when they ham fist the controls.
 
I don't the the power numbers are that important - the rotating mass on the 600 will be less and the rpms will be more jumpy. The clutch will also engage quicker and is less forgiving.
 
I've had the front wheel in the air on almost every bike I've owned through a combination of dumb thinking and ham-fisted throttle control.

I'm sure glad the first time I did it was on my 250. I backed the choke off too soon and it bogged coming away from a stop (almost stalling). From prior memories of driving carbed cars, I slipped the clutch and gave it some gas. Cars don't wheelie :)

I'm sure I would have 12-o'clocked something with any real power.
 
pannayar said:
Among riding and other things, I like mental masturbation too.
Click to expand...

Ok... as long as it falls under the subject of masturbation. :laughing

On topic- I prefer inline engines.. twins and fours.. and opossed(sp) twins.. With the exception of Ducati I've never been a fan of V twins of any flavor..

I also prefer over square engines or somewhere's around square..
 
[youtube]GgKoXzbw13E[/youtube]

I am going to make an assumption that you understand what throttle and clutch control are.

If you do, there is so much bad things that can happen if you do not understand the other aspects of riding.

The idea behind beginner motorcycles is that while you are learning every aspect of riding, that if you were on an 100hp or a 700lb motorcycle, the difficulty of controlling it would overwhelm your abilities.

But to pay attention to slight differences between bikes which weigh about 350lbs with 50hp is a distraction to much more important concepts, like proper entry speed and body position. This rider on a 125cc scooter would not have crashed if he understood that.
 
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