Low end torque OR high end power, which is worse for learning?

[Stormdragon]

It's not just the engine. The handling and the riding position also play a big part in it. Even the "S" model SV650 has a very comfortable and easy to ride position.

Ding! Winnar! By handling I'm going to assume you meant rake and trail in regards to how the bike responds to input. I'll add in that the amount of suspension should be factored in as well. Short suspension travel, ala supersports, results in twitchy steering when bumpy roads or potholes are involved.

The problem with 600cc SS for newbies is not the power, but the ergo. The aggressive riding position is less natural for a new rider, and is much harder to learn on than a bike with an upright riding position.

The ideal beginner's bike would have a mild low-end torque/power and an upright ergo, e.g., GS500 or Ninja 500.

Another comment worth thinking about.

 

[JesasaurusRex]

If said rider has self control it doesn't matter what bike he starts on. The bigger the motor the harder it will be to stall. If said person doesn't have self control naturally a smaller motor won't get him in as much trouble. If you're paying for the bike naturally get whatever you feel comfortable with him getting. If he's paying for it give him your advice if he asks, once, and don't worry about it anymore. Obviously the motor size comment im using when you compare two motorcycles in the same class. The 2 you chose are not. The 600 is faster and one will be tempted to do so. Take that how you will.

 

[pannayar]

If a rider is that far into stupid...Not having even the remotest concept of what controls do, ... There is no hope.

Don't blame torque...
there is only one place to put blame, and the idiot gets that award.

If you accidentally hurt your hands while chopping vegetables, is that far into stupid or not having even the remotest concept of what knives do? Can't we blame the ultra sharp German knife (the torque) a bit in that situation? I would rather say less experienced instead of far stupid.

Lou, how are you? It has been about 10 years!

 

[pannayar]

I've heard a couple people say that an SV650 would be worse beginner bike than a 600 just because it has more low-end torque, and I just laugh.

No matter what you say, people will always make an excuse trying to justify buying that "tight looking" 600.......You know, the one with a jagged power curve, high seat, high pegs, low bars, stiff ride, tiny mirrors, and the temptation to explore high rpm's and then go "oh shit"

If someone says a 600 makes more power than the SV (below 8K rpm for this thread) and hence worse than the SV, that would seem a little absurd, and can qualify for a laugh.

The presence of the danger zone (the high rpms) together with the temptations/mistakes and the bad ergos - that I agree. But not the engine/motor by itself at mundane rpms - which is the point of this thread.

 

[louemc]

Fraid Ya have to jog my memory, Pannayar... You can PM me or just post...
But, have we met? Or done anything 10 years ago?

 

[ALANRIDER7]

Not a whole lot of videos of people looping or having SV650 bikes get away from them. Then again, the more sensible people are buying them....

I wrote up this whole post but then realized I know fuck-all about power technicalities

[youtube]jlYymSFq5L4[/youtube]

 

[afm199]

The SV650 is far more rider friendly than a modern 600. It's just easier to ride. Period. I've owned a whole bunch of 600s (from Honda Hurricane to 06 GSXR 600) and they are a shit ton of fun on the track. On the street the riding position sucks and the power band sucks.

 

[auntiebling]

if the assumption is that a new rider WILL make a gross throttle input mistake, that makes the "under 7000 rpm" stipulation moot and hilariously naive

7000 rpm comes up in about a second or two, and the back of the car in front of you a second after that.

the power curve of the sv and similar rides more closely resembles a car or truck that the vast majority of new riders are accustomed to where they run out of breath before 7k and don't mind being lugged around a bit.

if you want an i4 for a beginner, at least get a 750, at least it'll have a little torque to get the bike moving when they let the clutch out at 1200 rpm.

 

[Reli]

If someone says a 600 makes more power than the SV (below 8K rpm for this thread) and hence worse than the SV, that would seem a little absurd, and can qualify for a laugh.

The presence of the danger zone (the high rpms) together with the temptations/mistakes and the bad ergos - that I agree. But not the engine/motor by itself at mundane rpms - which is the point of this thread.

Technically you are correct, but what people are trying to say is, the vast majority of 600 riders aren't going to restrain themselves to mundane rpm's.

Noobs always say "oh I'm sensible"......lol

 

[JesasaurusRex]

If you're not paying for it you're really thinking about it way too much.

 

[Hooli]

Torque = horsepower

Um, don't think so.

 

[EjGlows]

Um, don't think so.

He's an expert.
There's no such thing as "maturity" or "self-control" when it come to a learned muscle memory skill.

OP, if you want a 600cc then get one. No one here is going to help you justify your decision. I'd like to point out that the number of threads started on basic motorcycle information is directly proportional to your experience level.

 

[pannayar]

...
OP, if you want a 600cc then get one. No one here is going to help you justify your decision. I'd like to point out that the number of threads started on basic motorcycle information is directly proportional to your experience level.

No, this is neither about me wanting one nor trying to decide.

 

[corndog67]

And.....there is quite a difference between an old F4 and a new 600. Get what you want. Keep your right wrist connected to you brain.

 

[GAJ]

The SV650 is far more rider friendly than a modern 600. It's just easier to ride. Period. I've owned a whole bunch of 600s (from Honda Hurricane to 06 GSXR 600) and they are a shit ton of fun on the track. On the street the riding position sucks and the power band sucks.

Agreed.

But if we're talking what is a new friendly bike I'd have to go with upright ergos, light weight, (ie. below 350lbs), used, relatively cheap and already scuffed up a bit.

 

[louemc]

umm GAJ, AFM199 said it all and said it right...On the street the powerband of a 600 sucks,.. And the riding position Sucks Are you disagreeing with that?

The basic SV650 is so versatile in the spread of happy place..It became iconic, ya not agreeing with that?

 

[GAJ]

umm GAJ, AFM199 said it all and said it right...On the street the powerband of a 600 sucks,.. And the riding position Sucks Are you disagreeing with that?

The basic SV650 is so versatile in the spread of happy place..It became iconic, ya not agreeing with that?

Considering I said I agreed I'm not sure what your point is.

As I also stated I think there are better choices than those two to start on though.

 

[Entoptic]

My concern would be that a top end bike could "get away" from a noob in a blink of an eye. They can go from 50 to 90 really damn fast and if someone isn't used to that kind of power it could be deadly. Not saying a SV can't do that but I believe it is the safer of the bikes. Besides learning throttle control for wheelies is a must for noobs.

 

[Corb]

For a "sensible" beginner (with a little prior riding experience) is a SV650 (or a similar bike with a lot of low end torque) more friendly or a 600cc sport (like the F4i/RR etc)? By a sensible rider, I roughly mean a rider who stays below say 6K rpm.

The SV650 is often termed "beginner friendly" whereas the 600cc is a strong NO (actually this thread makes me write this...)

My point (thinking) is if the rpms are sub 7K, the 600cc super-sport is going to be more friendlier to learn throttle control than a SV650 because of their lower torque and less sensitivity in that range.

Other than one 50 mile ride 12 years back on my friend's F4i, I have not ridden the 600 and higher class of super sports... So this could be a figment of my imagination. Finally I emphasize, we are talking about a sedate rider who is not completely new to motorcycles, and keeping the tach below 6K.

Whats the point of owning a 100hp bike if you are only going to use 35hp by keeping it under 7k rpm?
Why not buy a DRZ-SM and use all the 35hp all the time? Cheaper to buy, cheaper to insure, easier to work on, far more crash able and much more important a whole lot more fun to ride than a 600ss kept under 7000rpm.

 

[louemc]

Ummm GAJ, Following "agree" with a "but" isn't a real agree

And...Injecting "different" choices of bikes...For who, doing what? Where?

This gets so wildly variable...It's just your opinion.

There was a degree of solid in the 600 vs 650 part.