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Low end torque OR high end power, which is worse for learning?

For the issue of high-rpm powerband vs low rpm powerband:

My nephew was being "taught" by friends how to ride a motorcycle. I was sitting on the porch (drinking Guinness, yes Connie, I blame you! LoL!) after advising him that this was not the best first experience, but he's young and impressionable.

First bike was Yamaha 250 2-stroke motocrosser (old bike) The epitomy of high rpm powerband and next to nothing down low, requiring very smooth clutch control to launch smoothly. He stalled the bike over and over again trying to get it moving until he gave up.

Next bike was a WR450 of which his feet barely touched the ground. First attempt launched him across the street over the opposite curb where he crashed on a lawn. It was rather terrifying listening to all the overlapping screaming of "Pull in the Clutch!", "Hit the brake!", "Dude the kill switch!" simultaneously. I'm fairly certain all he could actually hear was the voice in his head screaming, "Shit!" Fortunately he was unhurt. Not being able to stop the lesson, I made him wear every piece of motocross safety gear except the boots. Including the chest protector elbow and shin guards. He had hiking boots, which were better than him trying to manipulate anything with dirt boots on for the first time.

Granted, I don't think they explained to him not to do the same thing on the WR450 as the YZ250, but if I had the misfortune to have to teach overzealous young people to ride in an unsuitable location with unsuitable bikes I would rather they stall the bike over and over until they gave up and realized they needed a more suitable bike and training setting, rather than to come to that conclusion by becoming a human lawn dart.
 
A small exercise in fitting/aligning two images... Does anyone know how to superimpose one pic on top of another?
2qbyud0.jpg
 
pannayar said:
Wow. Please tell me the trick! :)
Click to expand...

Photoshop... superimpose (copy/paste)... make top layer 50% visible... scale until they line up... make top layer 100% visible and change to "Multiply" mode... delete overlapping elements.
 
ride365 said:
Photoshop... superimpose (copy/paste)... make top layer 50% visible... scale until they line up... make top layer 100% visible and change to "Multiply" mode... delete overlapping elements.
Click to expand...

Cool, that is a very nice super impose you did there. thanks! :thumbup

Don't have photoshop. Most likely GIMP should have something equivalent...
 
My first moto was an I4 600. When I bought it I had some crapped-out dirtbike time and about 5K of scooter miles under my belt. It was fine for me, but then again I was very circumspect about keeping the RPMs sub-4k then sub-6k for the first 1,000 miles.

I did have to learn clutch control, as at low RPMs it was easy to kill.

After 10 years of riding I sold it and then was out of saddle for the next 10. When I got back into it I picked up a 650 parallel twin. Almost exactly the same weight and horsepower, but a totally different torque curve. MUCH easier to get going, especially with a passenger, and much more forgiving of hamhanded throttle and clutch moves. It will pull up the front tire, but only if I specifically ask it to.

If I was a new rider, I'd go with the parallel twin. You still have to learn clutch control, but those "oops, killed it" moments are far fewer, and anything that is less distracting is good when you're also getting a grip on everything else riding requires.
 
A brand new rider, pick something and get used to it. I mean, really get used to it. Then, I would try to ride as many different bikes that you can get people to let you ride. Sportsters, ninja 250s, liter bikes, touring bikes, everything. And learn how to control all of them. Shit, throw an old Bultaco or Triumph in there with right hand shift, too. After a while, you'll get the basics down, how to ride a bike with very shitty brakes, vs, say the latest and greatest SS with phenomenal brakes. Get comfortable on something with absolutely no throttle response, then be equally comfortable with the fastest throttle response out there. I've heard people blame their crashes on someone else's bike's brakes. Shit, you were riding it. You should have adapted. I guess that's my point. Get versatile. Its for your own safety.
 
I think an important thing to remember here is that an i4 and a v-twin will have two different ranges of rpms that they operate in. An SV650 redlines at around 11k, while a common i4 bike like a gsxr revs to 15k. And yes, the i4 has much touchier throttle, with a more peaky power band. But under 7k, the motor is much less responsive, and doesn't have much pickup due to the lower power at low rpms. So yes, riding an i4 sport bike under 7k might make less power or torque but its also not quite the rpm range you'd be riding in.

Even beginners are tempted to try getting full throttle on their bike eventually.. And once a sport bike gets to 8k or so the power really starts to kick in and your throttle gets much more sensitive. Then the sudden burst of power comes in at higher rpms, and that is what will commonly get novice riders on an i4 in trouble. Add to that a much more touchy throttle, that when leaned over especially can also cause issues for a beginner.


So basically you are correct in saying the i4 would make less power at these low rpms, but the fact a v-twin has a responsive and predictable power delivery because of its torque makes it easier to manage than the i4. Add to that the more upright, easier to get used to riding position and less overall power than an i4 sportbike, and it becomes a better choice for a beginner.
 
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Having ridden an SV 650 a few times,
and
Presently owning a carbureted 600 SuperSport
I can say the
SV 650 is a better bike for a beginner .

Once the rider has a lot of time and miles of experience , a carbureted 600 SuperSport would be a step up,
Be sure to have a good mechanic jet the carbs so that it has smooth midrange.
Mine is Jetted with aftermarket exhaust, and it is so smooth in the lower and mid rpm range that I mostly ride between 5 to 7 thousand rpm.
Which is great for a beginner as well.

I rode someone else's 600 ( same make and model as my bike ) that was not jetted and it was , Not , smooth in the mid range,

The SV is a much better bike for a beginner , if he/she opens up the throttle it does not accelerate as fast as a inline 4 SuperSport !
( Mine goes to over 90 mph in second gear, real fast, and it is a 2002 ,

The SV takes longer to get up to speed .
 
i bought a grom for my gf to teach her how to ride motorcycles

my idea is not exactly throttle control for the motor, but just to get her to stabilize herself on the bike - and not feel bothered bout not being able to flat foot it, having high handlebars to eliminate the heavy steering, and small 12 inch tires which allow turning alot easier.

throttle control is secondary in my eyes, for me the first thing is operator must be physically comfortable when in riding position and have full control of how the bike stops, starts and turns.

i know a few ppl who started riding r1's and big 1000cc+ sport touring bikes, throttle control is not the main thing for me or them - its the rider being able to fully control the bike, acceleration and speed adds to the danger, but if rider cant control a bike at 5mph - then they aint gonna go out on the streets.

in fact i showed how to modulate the clutch and gas on my r1 to my gf, because the grom has so little power she has to really keep the revs up and slip the clutch alot to get it going anywhere.
 
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