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malaysian airline w/ 239 passengers lose contact w/ air traffic control..

Apparently, Rolls-Royce monitors the engines continuously while running. And if Rolls-Royce can receive broadcasts from the engines for hours after the flight disappeared from radar, there is no technical reason why such broadcasts cannot also include location, heading, and speed, via either GPS or an inertial system.

If they knew where the plane was right until the engines stopped running, finding it would have been a piece of cake.

I realize it's your nature to want to put everyone else down, at least here on BARF. But this time around, why don't you spend your energy trying to prove me right, rather than trying to prove me wrong? And only if you are unable to prove me right, come back and tell me I'm full of it.

And once you agree that what I suggested is technically possible, we can talk about the bureaucratic issues that are in play. Like adults.

Marlowe said:
Just do your research...auroral effects on L band are noticeable enough (and GPS is studied up north for this reason), but it gets much much worse if you're trying to do Ku/Ka that the in-flight satellite WiFi systems are using.

They're all geostationary, BTW...so you need to be able to track said satellite, in flight, while maneuvering, from much, much further north.

Then there's the expense of retrofitting everything for this new system, to solve what? The loss of the occasional box? The purpose of which is just to facilitate investigation after people are dead?

Seems like that money might be better spent elsewhere.
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GiorgioFurioso said:
Apparently, Rolls-Royce monitors the engines continuously while running. And if Rolls-Royce can receive broadcasts from the engines for hours after the flight disappeared from radar, there is no technical reason why such broadcasts cannot also include location, heading, and speed, via either GPS or an inertial system.

If they knew where the plane was right until the engines stopped running, finding it would have been a piece of cake.
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Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but if the transponders hadn't been disabled, we'd know the plane's location heading and speed. Up to this point, I think an aircraft's systems are designed on the assumption that the pilot will allow them to operate.
 
tzrider said:
Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but if the transponders hadn't been disabled, we'd know the plane's location heading and speed. Up to this point, I think an aircraft's systems are designed on the assumption that the pilot will allow them to operate.
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Exactly, but you just missed my earlier message, the premise of which was that this kind of thing (missing commercial jets going completely missing) could be easily avoided, however adoption of a such a system would be primarily hampered by bureaucratic and political hurdles. To which Marlowe essentially called me an idiot on two accounts.

That last message was just dealing with fall-out from that.
 
Move on.... I think the thread is still about a airplane.... I think.
 
GiorgioFurioso said:
Apparently, Rolls-Royce monitors the engines continuously while running. And if Rolls-Royce can receive broadcasts from the engines for hours after the flight disappeared from radar, there is no technical reason why such broadcasts cannot also include location, heading, and speed, via either GPS or an inertial system.

If they knew where the plane was right until the engines stopped running, finding it would have been a piece of cake.

I realize it's your nature to want to put everyone else down, at least here on BARF. But this time around, why don't you spend your energy trying to prove me right, rather than trying to prove me wrong? And only if you are unable to prove me right, come back and tell me I'm full of it.

And once you agree that what I suggested is technically possible, we can talk about the bureaucratic issues that are in play. Like adults.
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So, the posts in question were referring to the feasibility of continuously streaming CVR and FDR data.

That's a lot of data (potentially dozens of channels in the case of the FDR, and a few for the CVR) -- and streaming it from thousands of aircraft in the air is a non-trivial problem to solve, which was my point.

Question for you: Where did I put anyone down?

As for it being technically possible, but possible is not feasible. Sure, if you launched a bunch of satellites with relay capabilities to allow it to be used over the poles, you could do it.

...but why? With that much money you could save quite a few lives. Expending billions upon billions on a once or twice in a lifetime event may not be the most effective use of resources.

The point of the CVR & FDR are to aid accident investigations, allowing us to refine equipment, procedures, and training to protect life. The data in and of itself doesn't save anyone until after the fact. And they certainly don't save anyone if it's the result of an intentional act by someone with access to the flight deck and avionics bay.
 
I don't know if it's been brought up, but I think there's a very good possibility that not all countries are being forthcoming about info because they don't want to reveal their electronic capabilities...or lack thereof.
 
Poxy said:
I don't know if it's been brought up, but I think there's a very good possibility that not all countries are being forthcoming about info because they don't want to reveal their electronic capabilities...or lack thereof.
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Ding ding ding.
 
GiorgioFurioso said:
Mine certainly were not about streaming CVR and FDR data, don't know how you got that impression.
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The original suggestion was to move the black box to the cloud. It might not have been your suggestion but that's what the conversation was about at that point.
 
Rel said:
Ding ding ding.
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I get what you mean, along with who you quoted, but seein how this happened, their vulnerabilities are already exposed. Any other countries, id figure its common knowledge we all got satellites n electronis gismos trackin everythin. Especially since 9-11.

I dont really see the benefit of bein secretive in this situation. But then again, im jus a simple minded man.

........ wait, what?
 
tzrider said:
The original suggestion was to move the black box to the cloud. It might not have been your suggestion but that's what the conversation was about at that point.
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The conversation was about how technology had failed to prevent a plane from disappearing, and ways that might solve that pain. My comments were coming from the problem solving perspective.

I'm not interested in re-hashing the conversation; the thread is its own black box of speed, altitude, and direction of this lost conversation. Apparently, he had no idea what I was actually saying.

Which lead to my last suggestion, about trying to prove someone right before claiming they were wrong...
 
sanjuro said:
If you are a media watcher/hater like I am, this is a wonderful story to see reporters pulling their hair out.

This is the one of the most important stories of this decade, but the news has little to report. National military and security organizations, who control radar and satellite imagery, are not in the business of making press releases, much less tell what they are and are not monitoring.

On the other hand, millions are demanding to know what happened. Even in America, who had no citizens on board, are very curious about why a plane went missing, which the answer is relatively simple: the tracking technology was not utilized or easily disabled.

​So the media is at their wits trying to explain the same story every day: the ocean is big and it is like finding a needle in the haystack.
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From the article in the original post...

The passengers are of 13 nationalities, the airline said. They were from China and Taiwan (154), Malaysia (38), Indonesia (12), Australia (7), France (3), United States (4), New Zealand (2), Ukraine (2), Canada (2), Russia (1), Italy (1), Netherlands (1), Austria (1).
One infant from the United States and another from China were included in the tally.
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The US has an interest in this.
 
Debris discovered in southern remote section of the Indian Ocean--- Malaysian Government just confirmed based on analysis of satellite images is the latest i just heard.
 
Malaysian PM says the aircraft crashed west of Perth, Australia. Which is weird as the data from the engines showed a turn the opposite direction toward Vietnam.
 
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