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pge liable for camp fire?

afm199 said:
Because the stockholders are the first line of defense. It's entirely likely that PG&E will end up reorganizing under a new corporate umbrella, where the stockholders simply get totally hosed. (That is, the company goes through bankruptcy and a new company takes over the operations, debt, and infrastructure. That's why I will wait to $5.

The legislation that CA passed does not cover PG&E completely by any means, it gives them a way to borrow more money safely and limits damages. It won't protect them in a truly disastrous situation, AFAIK.

Here's the kicker: PG&E just published that they have less than $2 billion in insurance. That's not even close to covering the claims that will come from the Camp Fire. That's why bankruptcy. PG&E doesn't have the money, and it is unlikely that it will be passed on to the ratepayers. That's why we have corporations, to shield from liability.
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Can I ask why you'd buy at all? Because shares won't carry over in a reorganization, right? They're going to be sued into oblivion and will be uninsurable and the hourglass has already been flipped. Take a couple years maybe. They're going to completely rebrand.
 
afm199 said:
Because the stockholders are the first line of defense. It's entirely likely that PG&E will end up reorganizing under a new corporate umbrella, where the stockholders simply get totally hosed. (That is, the company goes through bankruptcy and a new company takes over the operations, debt, and infrastructure. That's why I will wait to $5.

The legislation that CA passed does not cover PG&E completely by any means, it gives them a way to borrow more money safely and limits damages. It won't protect them in a truly disastrous situation, AFAIK.

Here's the kicker: PG&E just published that they have less than $2 billion in insurance. That's not even close to covering the claims that will come from the Camp Fire. That's why bankruptcy. PG&E doesn't have the money, and it is unlikely that it will be passed on to the ratepayers. That's why we have corporations, to shield from liability.
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Wow, I couldn't even imagine Pigs, Goats & Elephants not existing. They're such a California..... "institution". :rolleyes Not that the replacement will be any better.
 
aminalmutha said:
Wow, I couldn't even imagine Pigs, Goats & Elephants not existing. They're such a California..... "institution". :rolleyes Not that the replacement will be any better.
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I always thought Pacific Greed & Extortion was more creative. :laughing
 
afm199 said:
Because the stockholders are the first line of defense. It's entirely likely that PG&E will end up reorganizing under a new corporate umbrella, where the stockholders simply get totally hosed. (That is, the company goes through bankruptcy and a new company takes over the operations, debt, and infrastructure. That's why I will wait to $5.

The legislation that CA passed does not cover PG&E completely by any means, it gives them a way to borrow more money safely and limits damages. It won't protect them in a truly disastrous situation, AFAIK.

Here's the kicker: PG&E just published that they have less than $2 billion in insurance. That's not even close to covering the claims that will come from the Camp Fire. That's why bankruptcy. PG&E doesn't have the money, and it is unlikely that it will be passed on to the ratepayers. That's why we have corporations, to shield from liability.
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That was my point.... let it drop and buy buy buy...
 
I agree with Ernie: PG&E is now in a death spiral. Politically, they need to go away too, and not just a rebranding. The pushback on personal alternative energy sources from PG&E is mind numbing. Can't say I'll miss them.
 
Holeshot said:
I agree with Ernie: PG&E is now in a death spiral. Politically, they need to go away too, and not just a rebranding. The pushback on personal alternative energy sources from PG&E is mind numbing. Can't say I'll miss them.
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If the stock dips low enough below what PG&E's assets are worth, I would expect another company to jump in, buy the assets and somehow shed the liability.

$9.23 Billion as the market cap stands right now seems like a bargain for all the land, infrastructure, and equipment PG&E owns
 
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byke said:
Can I ask why you'd buy at all? Because shares won't carry over in a reorganization, right? They're going to be sued into oblivion and will be uninsurable and the hourglass has already been flipped. Take a couple years maybe. They're going to completely rebrand.
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Because it may not happen. Nobody knows what cockamamie ideas the California Legislature will come up with.
 
Holeshot said:
I agree with Ernie: PG&E is now in a death spiral. Politically, they need to go away too, and not just a rebranding. The pushback on personal alternative energy sources from PG&E is mind numbing. Can't say I'll miss them.
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I hope you're right.

Their literal ownership of CPUC has been a thorn in the side of Californians for decades now, doing WTF they feel like, pocketing money earmarked for inspections, repairs and tree trimming/removal and giving themselves huge bonuses whether they did right or wrong.

I think that CPUC needs to be gutted and built from the top down as well, might as well clean house and do it right if your prediction comes about.

Also, they should watch closely to ensure that the Execs don't give themselves huge bonuses before declaring bankruptcy like Drexel, Burnham & Lambert did back in 1990 in one of the sleaziest moves to date, at the time.
 
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wazzuFreddo said:
If the stock dips low enough below what PG&E's assets are worth, I would expect another company to jump in, buy the assets and somehow shed the liability.

$9.23 Billion as the market cap stands right now seems like a bargain for all the land, infrastructure, and equipment PG&E owns
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Correct. I wouldn't be surprised at all if a large utility or Energy company (or many) are examining ways to profit from this.

Here is an interesting article. Apparently PG&E just borrowed every penny it could from its various lines of credit.

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/pg...potential-bankruptcy-filing-over-fire/542205/

From this I'd guess two things: Several underwriters are going to be without employment soon, and PG&E is, indeed, doing all the footwork for bankruptcy. The big questions that come up with that are who will pay the pensions ( huge), and how big the impact on Calpers and Calstrs will be. (They don't hold the pensions, but they almost certainly hold billions of dollars of PG&E stock. )

Their total assets are huge, probably way over $50-80 billion.
 
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And any real estate is probably way undervalued. I guess what confuses me is, it would seem they're already valued way below asset value. And we still have a ways to go with fines and lawsuits. Napa fires will cost them 2.5 billion? And Santa Rosa hasn't been determined yet, but could be up to 15 billion? And Paradise...and Ventura...and....
 
byke said:
And any real estate is probably way undervalued. I guess what confuses me is, it would seem they're already valued way below asset value. And we still have a ways to go with fines and lawsuits. Napa fires will cost them 2.5 billion? And Santa Rosa hasn't been determined yet, but could be up to 15 billion? And Paradise...and Ventura...and....
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I don't think anyone "gets" it. Corporate finances in a public utility are about as transparent as baked mud.

Yep, the are facing tens of billions of liability and no way to pay it.
 
afm199 said:
Sounds about right. The actual asset value is probably guess work as much as anything real. That's what the sharks would be looking at, whether the land and plants are worth taking a chance on.
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Wouldn't it be like buying a used car that hasn't had the upkeep done on it?

Remember that they 'couldn't find the records' for safety inspections (I took that as shredded), so a buyer wouldn't really know what they were getting and that is a shitload of inspecting.
 
Climber said:
Wouldn't it be like buying a used car that hasn't had the upkeep done on it?

Remember that they 'couldn't find the records' for safety inspections (I took that as shredded), so a buyer wouldn't really know what they were getting and that is a shitload of inspecting.
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Those are the questions that would be answered by the lawyers on both sides, or rather all 31 sides.
 
Climber said:
I think that CPUC needs to be gutted and built from the top down as well, might as well clean house and do it right if your prediction comes about.
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CPUC should be reorganized to pull members from PG&E (or successor) service area mayoral pool as well as, county supervisor pool, and Cal Fire, IMO.

afm199 said:
I don't think anyone "gets" it. Corporate finances in a public utility are about as transparent as baked mud.
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Totally...same reason I LOL when people want to "see the tax returns" of companies/ individuals. They tell near nothing.
 
That's skipping a little too far ahead with the tax thing. People don't want them revealed for the same reason people want to see them, because they create questions you otherwise didn't know to ask.
 
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