Slow speed practice, no experts please

[B-Cuz]

 

[Mike95060]

If anyone ever posted on the Cycle world message board about 5 or so years ago, you may remember a character named Julian Solos. Now I have no way to be certain but damn if beginner doesn't sound just like that epic troll.

 

[beginner]

If anyone ever posted on the Cycle world message board about 5 or so years ago, you may remember a character named Julian Solos. Now I have no way to be certain but damn if beginner doesn't sound just like that epic troll.

I found this web site that appears to be by Julian Solos and outlines some concerns about motorcycle safety http://www.geocities.com/juliansolos/areas.html The politics of motorcycle safety is interesting but I'd rather talk about slow speed practice.

Big rain yesterday so the off road areas are off limits, back to the parking lot to work on slips.

 

[Nemo Brinker]

Enchanter is the hero of this thread.

I've done a great deal of slow-speed practice in parking lots, and taken courses (the Alameda County Sheriff's civilian class) based around that type of maneuvering. It's only part of the equation.

To miss mentoring, training, open road riding, peer-to-peer feedback, etc. is to miss out on a great deal of motorcycling knowledge. It can only be to one's detriment.

 

[beginner]

I've done a great deal of slow-speed practice in parking lots, and taken courses (the Alameda County Sheriff's civilian class) based around that type of maneuvering. It's only part of the equation.

To miss mentoring, training, open road riding, peer-to-peer feedback, etc. is to miss out on a great deal of motorcycling knowledge. It can only be to one's detriment.

It would be interesting to hear about the exercises you do most and what percent of your moving time is exercises. Last summer I was doing PLP 50% of the riding time available. This season started in early March. The pavement is ridable but most of the off road areas are not so 80% has been PLP.

My bike is in a remote rural area, not an urban area. The types of rescources you describe are not available. I can watch riders in videos online. I make videos of my slow speed practice and evaluate what i see in those. I would buy a book on slow speed skills if such a thing existed. I'm not aware of anyone for miles around who likes to practice and/or they don't know about me. From talking to local sheriff deputies it would appear I'm the only regular practicer for miles around.

The risks of riding in traffic don't interest me yet. I'll try to have more skill before considering that.

 

[crazybob]

My bike is in a remote rural area, not an urban area.
...
The risks of riding in traffic don't interest me yet. I'll try to have more skill before considering that.

Sounds like you're not even able to worry about what most of us consider 'traffic.' What's your definition?

 

[beginner]

Sounds like you're not even able to worry about what most of us consider 'traffic.' What's your definition?

When there is a flow of vehicles that's traffic. I got the bike for mobility on the farm and nearby areas then found skills were more significant than I anticipated and then found that developing skills was as interesting as riding around so I do about an equal amount of both. I'm interested in slow speed practice of the kind usually recommended to street riders. I also like gymkhana and motor police skills.

It appears the overwhelming majority of searious injuries and deaths are on the roads and a high percentage of those have lack of skill as part of the cause. It seems logical then that working on skills in a low risk environment makes sense, especially if it's enjoyable. It's slow speed skills I'm interested in discussing, not riding in traffic.

You didn't mention what slow speed exercies you like to do.

P.S. Peer to peer or mentor would be useless to me if they don't practice. And there is no one who is going to stop by the parking lot once in a while, make comments about something he doesn't do then drive on down the road. I might find someone online who is interested in talking about practice but that has yet to appear in my physical neighborhood.

 

[CaptCrash]

Enchanter is the hero of this thread.

To miss mentoring, training, open road riding, peer-to-peer feedback, etc. is to miss out on a great deal of motorcycling knowledge. It can only be to one's detriment.

Amen.

And missing mentoring, training, peer-to-peer feedback is to miss the living half of riding. The ART isn't in the imagined science, it's in living it, feeling it, riding it and loving it...then SHARING it.

Went for a PRACTICE ride with 11 other riders the other day. The guy in the lead was having a rough time finding a good line (he was nervous up front) so I slipped by and let him follow mine for a while.

After that I led one guy for almost 100 miles. We just practiced at a good brisk pace. It was really wonderful. If you're alone you're alone with the math and physics and sometimes, when misread, you're cheating yourself of the best half of motorcycling--sharing it.

At the end of the day EVERYBODY had a good time, everybody came back a little more polished, everybody grew as riders.

Good practice session.

 

[Phaedrus]

How long did it take you to get your automobile driver's license?

 

[beginner]

everybody grew as riders. Good practice session.

But it was not SLOW SPEED practice--the title of the thread.

The pavement in the parking lot was wet today, which I used to avoid but take advantage of now. At slow speed on wet pavement the front tire still has most of its traction but it's easier to unhook the rear tire and keep it unhooked. It's also a chance to feel slip in the most beginning stages. Another thing that's good about practicing on wet pavement is you turn more carefully. Careful is good, wet or dry.

Another thing I'm working on lately is Uturns leaning back with the arm on the outside of the turn almost fully extended. Doing that shifts weight onto the rear wheel and keeps my upper body quieter in the turn and for some reason Uturns become more accurate and easier to tighten up.

I've been working a lot more on slow riding lately and I think that is improving balance at all speeds and in all other maneuvers. When I first get on the bike I like to warm up and part of that is testing to see if my balance is good, no dizzyness or lightheadedness. 150' of slow riding is a good start.

How long did it take you to get your automobile driver's license?

I was allowed to drive a car on the long drives on the farm starting about age 12, may be it was 10. Our mother was a pilot, she was our driving instructor and took a disciplined approach to put it mildly. By the time of driver ed class I'd been driving for years.

 

[CaptCrash]

I've been working a lot more on slow riding lately and I think that is improving balance at all speeds and in all other maneuvers.

I'm feeling pissy...

I thought you never exceed 35mph--so you don't KNOW it's helping, you ASSUME it WILL help.

Your lack of experience with operating a motorcycle at speed and in traffic mean that this sort of blanket statement is simply...hopeful?

 

[Gnarly Cranium]

From what I've noticed, every time you add 10mph, the bike becomes a different sort of beast. There's a world of difference between 5 and 15, and also between 65 and 75-- steering, braking, acceleration, wind, everything changes constantly. Slow practice does contribute something to the faster stuff, I'm sure-- but not a ton, just like high speed stuff doesn't necessarily contribute a lot to slower stuff, as you keep reminding us.

 

[tzrider]

It appears the overwhelming majority of searious injuries and deaths are on the roads and a high percentage of those have lack of skill as part of the cause.

The typical skill deficiencies in the majority of cases is:

• A failure to turn effectively
• A failure to brake effectively
• A failure to see the threat in time

You're addressing the second point above in ways that will translate to street situations.

You're somewhat addressing the first point, though the drills you are doing will not translate completely at higher speeds. I don't think you believe that, from our past interactions.

So far, your practice isn't addressing the third point at all. This is the domain of managing your attention, keeping your focus sufficiently far ahead and seeing as big a picture as possible. Your years of driving give you a sense for developing situations in traffic, though a situation that might not cause you concern in your car might have different significance to you on your bike.

 

[CaptCrash]

Excellent low speed practice with real world application is swerving practice. Often, in traffic we follow cars too closely and things magically appear out from under thier bumpers. To me this seems to happen a lot under 25mph when we seem to follow closer.

Cars straddle a tennis shoe, we make the snap decision to swerve or surmount.

Cars straddle a 2ft x 2ft piece of plywood, we decide to swerve or surmount (has it got nails facing pointy side up?--SWERVE).

Cars staddle a folding lawn chair (yup, seen it) and we decide to swerve or surmount.

4 Lane Highway on a 'Busa at 70mph with Mrs.Crash on the back when suddenly there's a compound bow and 20 pointy hunting arrows spread across the road (all pointing at me, I swear)...NO SURMOUNTING! SWERVE, SWERVE, SWERVE--CUSS. SO, swerving works at 70...

Therefore swerving and surmounting at speeds between 15 and 20mph is an excellent slow speed parking lot practice as it prepares you for swerving at ANY speed.

 

[951dude]

Big rain yesterday so the off road areas are off limits, back to the parking lot to work on slips.

Dude, you have a dirtbike... take it off road for pete's sake. Here, I found the page you need:
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/wheretoride.php?f=282

Looks like plenty of riding areas to me

 

[Gnarly Cranium]

4 Lane Highway on a 'Busa at 70mph with Mrs.Crash on the back when suddenly there's a compound bow and 20 pointy hunting arrows spread across the road (all pointing at me, I swear)...NO SURMOUNTING! SWERVE, SWERVE, SWERVE--CUSS. SO, swerving works at 70...

Holy crap! ...I picture all this in House Of Flying Daggers type bullet time and it's a lot more fun than the real thing would be. Not only other traffic to worry about, but ninja ambushes too!

 

[crazybob]

Holy crap! ...I picture all this in House Of Flying Daggers type bullet time and it's a lot more fun than the real thing would be. Not only other traffic to worry about, but ninja ambushes too!

I didn't do it, I swear! I was doing a cone session with fig 8s, weaves, swerves & panic stops!

 

[beginner]

I thought you never exceed 35mph--so you don't KNOW it's helping, you ASSUME it WILL help. Your lack of experience with operating a motorcycle at speed and in traffic mean that this sort of blanket statement is simply...hopeful?

I could have said slow ride practice seems to help at all my speeds and all my maneuvers. The bike is always changing lean angles, it's aways grabing or giving up a little traction. Over time my ability to detect smaller and smaller changes and detect them earlier seems to improve. Slow riding seems to be a good foundation exercise for feeling lean angle changes without the distraction of traction changes.

From what I've noticed, every time you add 10mph, the bike becomes a different sort of beast. There's a world of difference between 5 and 15, and also between 65 and 75-- steering, braking, acceleration, wind, everything changes constantly. Slow practice does contribute something to the faster stuff, I'm sure-- but not a ton, just like high speed stuff doesn't necessarily contribute a lot to slower stuff, as you keep reminding us.

If that was true then chapters of motorcycle dynamics books would be divided into speed ranges. I'm noticing my ability to control the bike has everything to do with what I can feel. If I can't feel it I can't do it. Once I start to feel what's happening I start to learn techniques for doing something with it. Slow riding seems to be a useful core exercise that you never out grow. I envy the balancing abilities of the trials riders.

The typical skill deficiencies in the majority of cases is A failure to turn effectively

Which begs the question of what particular skill deficiencies. In practice I've been exploring rear wheel traction, how to increase and decrease it and I'm impressed by how little effort it takes to unhook the rear by subtle changes in power, weight distribution, roll rate, etc. The road is not the place to experiement with that.

A failure to brake effectively

People learn at different rates. I simply wasn't comfortable with front wheel traction to brake effectively until this year. My self imposed speed limit had mostly to do with my best assessment of braking ability.

A failure to see the threat in time

Whether I see a threat early or late I'd like to have the practiced skill to react effectively. Some abilities come faster than others. Limiting speed is a prudent way to compensate for lack of skill.

Your years of driving give you a sense for developing situations in traffic, though a situation that might not cause you concern in your car might have different significance to you on your bike.

Driving a car is valid experience for situation awareness but it is zero preparation for the skills needed to maneuver a motorcycle anywhere near it's potential. Caution, experience, prudence, restraint, etc. are Plan A. Skill is Plan B.

Dude, you have a dirtbike... take it off road for pete's sake. Here, I found the page you need: http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/wheretoride.php?f=282 Looks like plenty of riding areas to me

I have all the off road riding area I need but access is limited right now because it's Spring, the mud season. Even so I like to practice on pavement for a variety of reasons. The pavement is fun, I can lean the bike much more. On pavement I can learn to feel what the bike is doing with less "noise" from the surface I'm riding on, etc. As the ground dries out the trails and roads available will expand. Some of the most interesting trails are so wet they don't become available to the motorcycle until late summer, if then.

 

[CaptCrash]

In practice I've been exploring rear wheel traction, how to increase and decrease it and I'm impressed by how little effort it takes to unhook the rear by subtle changes in power, weight distribution, roll rate, etc. The road is not the place to experiement with that.

See, this is the dangerous part. You're not slipping or unhooking the rear. The reason I always call BS on this is that you're fostered a false sense of security for yourself. For new riders to ride a few thousand figure 8s and decide they're unhooking the rear at 5mph and then think they will be able to manage a rear wheel slide at 40mph is dangerous.

On our ride at the other day we came upon an accident. A 60ish gentleman on a RoadKing went wide in a left hand turn, ground againt a guard rail and he and his passenger were ejected off the motorcycle, over the railing and both got a ride in the air ambulance.

Missing skill? Press the inside grip to tighten the turn. Was this a "high speed" wreck? Since the motorcycle suffered minimal damage (scratches and a broken driving light) AND stopped by itself (riderless) in less than 30 feet (stopped by itself standing against the rail) AND the becasue turn speed is posted at 25mph--I would bank his speed at contact was pretty darn low.

Practicing "breaking the rear loose at 5mph" wouldn't have helped him. Why? Because the torsional deformation of the tire you're feeling (and you have a wonderfully sensitive butt) ISN'T the same as sliding the rear at speed. Perhaps being comfortable with torsional deformation would have allowed him to be more willing to increase his lean BUT the problem was he couldn't increase his lean and tighten his line. He probably got to looking at the railing and got target fixated and griiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiind his wife is over the rail, his right leg is broken, his foot facing backward and he's sucked off the bike and as he instinctively curls in pain, he goes over the railing.

What would have helped this poor guy?

PRESSING on the handgrip could have saved him all the grief. One of the important things that practicing swerving does is reinforce countersteering to initiate lean. By becoming comfortable with an active handlebar using that skill later becomes natural.

To practice swerving I often just throw down a couple of cones as a gate, ride through it, then swerve right or left. This can be practiced at 15-20mph. You'll notice that as your speed comes up, the motorcycle behaves differently. Give it a try sometime! Heck, you could do a couple at 5mph, then a few at 10mph, then a few at 15 and then 20. If you need a barrier line, put a couple of cones 15 feet from your gate and create a 2ft offset to swerve around.

Videotape it! We'll watch. Looking forward to seeing so sweet swerves and quick countersteers. (Remember a swerve is 2 quick turns, press in the direction of the swerve to avoid the barrier line, press back the other way to return to your original path.)



OH, and remember to let the motorcycle move underneath you, roll your hips, and let the bike lean--this is a quick move and you won't have time to lean with the bike.

 

[beginner]

See, this is the dangerous part.

When you invoke your "dangerous" argument you step over the line. Riding a motorcycle is not a religion and you are not a priest. I could be right, I could be wrong. Understanding is crucial to proficiency on a bike. Blind following undermines that. If you want to disagree do it on the merits, not with logical fallicies, ie. appeals to authority.

You're not slipping or unhooking the rear. The reason I always call BS on this is that you're fostered a false sense of security for yourself. For new riders to ride a few thousand figure 8s and decide they're unhooking the rear at 5mph and then think they will be able to manage a rear wheel slide at 40mph is dangerous.

Actually being able to unhook the rear so easily creates the opposite of security. It helps me realize how vulnerable I am on the bike to unintended or undisciplined control inputs, including shifting upper body weight.

On our ride at the other day we came upon an accident. A 60ish gentleman on a RoadKing went wide in a left hand turn, ground againt a guard rail and he and his passenger were ejected off the motorcycle, over the railing and both got a ride in the air ambulance.

Sorry to hear about that. The safety record of modern motorcycles is horrific. In the WWI era bikes were getting well developed but they had poor tires, limited suspensions and very little pavement to ride on, that world was paved with gravel, not cement. Riders had to go slower. I wonder what the rate of serious injury and death per hour was compared to today.

Missing skill? Press the inside grip to tighten the turn. Was this a "high speed" wreck? Since the motorcycle suffered minimal damage (scratches and a broken driving light) AND stopped by itself (riderless) in less than 30 feet (stopped by itself standing against the rail) AND the becasue turn speed is posted at 25mph--I would bank his speed at contact was pretty darn low.

May be some PLP would have done him some good.

Practicing "breaking the rear loose at 5mph" wouldn't have helped him.

Beside the point

Why? Because the torsional deformation of the tire you're feeling (and you have a wonderfully sensitive butt) ISN'T the same as sliding the rear at speed.

Slip in the rear is a feeling like no other. It can happen in all kinds of ways. Practicing it isn't a panacea, just a very useful lesson.

He probably got to looking at the railing and got target fixated and griiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiind his wife is over the rail, his right leg is broken, his foot facing backward and he's sucked off the bike and as he instinctively curls in pain, he goes over the railing.

Sounds like a plausible explanation. I'll be a wimp for now and enjoy developing skills in the parking lot and try to avoid that fellow's unhappy experience.

What would have helped this poor guy?

Apparently more practiced skills than he had which he didn't have because he didn't practice which is a safe prediction because only a few eccentric loners like me do enough practice for it to matter. Too bad he didn't make that mistake in a parking lot next to cones instead of a guard rail.

PRESSING on the handgrip could have saved him all the grief. One of the important things that practicing swerving does is reinforce countersteering to initiate lean. By becoming comfortable with an active handlebar using that skill later becomes natural.

Practice, practice, practice...I think there's an echo.

To practice swerving I often just throw down a couple of cones as a gate, ride through it, then swerve right or left. This can be practiced at 15-20mph. You'll notice that as your speed comes up, the motorcycle behaves differently. Give it a try sometime! Heck, you could do a couple at 5mph, then a few at 10mph, then a few at 15 and then 20. If you need a barrier line, put a couple of cones 15 feet from your gate and create a 2ft offset to swerve around.

What I notice as speed goes up is maneuverability goes down and there is less time to decide about things.

Videotape it! We'll watch. Looking forward to seeing so sweet swerves and quick countersteers.

I have one location in the parking lot, a pedestal, I can use without the need of a tripod. It's difficult to safely carry anthing on my bike that doesn't fit in a pocket. I'm thinking about a tripod substitute made of found materials I can leave at the parking lot to give me more camera angles.

OH, and remember to let the motorcycle move underneath you, roll your hips, and let the bike lean--this is a quick move and you won't have time to lean with the bike.

The most important lesson of last summer was the relationship between shifting body weight and the motion of the bike. Last year it was about infliuence on lean. This year so far it's about influence on traction.