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Slow speed practice, no experts please

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I'm riding the bike similar to how I rode horses, for the mobility around the farm and the general area and enjoying skills for their own sake. The bike is not as maneverable, versitile, or safe as the horse but it has more endurance and costs less to operate. Most of the enjoyment of riding horses was doing it with skill. The same is true with the bike. Horse training is ring riding (a core exercise is figure 8s). Training on the bike is PLP. I'll borrow intereting techniques from where ever I find them, gymkhana, motor police, trials, dirt. Most of the off road areas I ride are only available from June through the first heavy snows in December. The rest of the year I'll work on skills in the parking lot which was available for 9 months in the past year.

I'm pretty sure you have not analyzed your seating position enough yet. Have you tried figure 8's while: standing/sitting off the left side/ sitting off the right side/ sitting back/ sitting forward/ sidesaddle ?

Please spend at least 8 hours practicing each one and report back with your findings. This could possibly revolutionize motorcycle riding everywhere !
 
It seems like you have a lot of respect for these guys. Have you talked to any motor cops about the technique?
I respect practice. If you know of a forum where motor police freely discuss technique with each other or with civilians I'd appreciate a link. I doubt that exists.
How do you think the weight of a bike effects the rider's ability to manage lean angle?
I can comment on some of the ways it's likely to effect a beginner like me, the ones I know about so far. More mass means it's harder to feel small changes in lean angle, it's harder to recover from mistakes, learning is going to be slower as mass increases. It's usual to see recommendations to start on a small bike for the sake of learning. For me mass is the learning issue more than power. (Power was a learning issue for me in the first couple weeks until I stopped making scary throttle mistakes and got used to how sensitive the throttle is.) Other things being equal, the less the bike weighs the faster learning is going to be.
As best as you can, would you explain how you think body position effects a motorcycle's handling in a turn?
A quiz? Do I get some extra recess if I pass? I can talk about what I've discovered so far. Shifting upper body weight forward and back influences traction, depending on how it's combined with other variables. Shifting upper body weight side to side influences lean angle and/or roll rate and can also influence traction. There might be more I don't know about yet. (counter steering rolls the bike, counter balancing leans the bike, neither one turns the bike)
How do you determine if you are NOT ready to begin learning a new skill?
I can give examples, I don't have a general rule. I tried quick outside figure 8s similar to what the gymkhana riders do and decided I wasn't comfortable enough with traction issues for that to be productive. That's starting to change because I'm beginning to feel subtle traction changes I was oblivious to last season. I backed off working on 2' offset cone weaves with 12' spacing because there was zero progress making it smoother. One of the missing peices of that puzzle was how I used the throttle. If core aptitudes are missing then working on an exercise is a waste of time at best. Figuring out what to work on is part of the challenge.
This is a great attitude! I wish everybody who rode motorcycles was so dedicated. If the over all goal is to be a safe street rider, what skills do you think would be the most important?
My goal is to enjoy the bike and not die even once. I fault the motorcycle establishment for failing to advise wannabes and new riders properly. A few times I've been asked how to get started. I say, get a bike that weighs less than 280 pounds, even smaller is better. For the first 300 hours divide time 50-50 between the parking lot and riding quite streets under 30 mph. If you manage 14 hours of PLP within a 21 day time frame sometime during the first 6-8 weeks there's a chance you'll get addicted to skill instead of just riding around. If that happens the parking lot will satisfy the addiction as effectively as the street and if THAT happens your survival chances may improve. I suspect that is, roughly, what motor police training trys to accomplish.
It seems like you've realized that the throttle is an important control on the motorcycle... do you think there are any controls that are more important than the throttle? If so, please say why.
Scary-throttle-mistakes were my first white knuckle moments on the bike. I reasoned that throttle decisions would be the key to my survival. So far that seems to hold true.
 
Shifting upper body weight forward and back influences traction, depending on how it's combined with other variables.

<snip>

Scary-throttle-mistakes were my first white knuckle moments on the bike. I reasoned that throttle decisions would be the key to my survival. So far that seems to hold true.

The two statements above relate to each other quite a bit. Your bike weighs about 233 pounds. Let's say you weigh 180. Your bike has a 56.5 inch wheelbase. Let's say that when you move fore or aft, you're moving about a foot.

Given these things, a foot is 21% of the wheelbase. When you move a foot, you shift 21% of your weight from the front wheel to the rear, or about 38 pounds. That works out to 9% of the combined weight of you plus the bike.

By comparison, an inch of movement from your right wrist will move 150 pounds off the front and onto the rear.

This isn't to say that body movement has no effect, but what you do with your body can easily be nullified if your throttle control isn't perfect. You say everything is important when riding. I won't disagree outright, but would qualify it by saying that not all things are equally important.

Part of the art of riding is in deciding where to put your attention for the greatest return. It's also in knowing that doing one thing can have an effect on another. As a case in point, shifting fore and aft on the bike can affect what you're doing with the throttle. You can train around this, but before you would decide this is necessary, you'd have to appreciate how crucial throttle control is.
 
This isn't to say that body movement has no effect, but what you do with your body can easily be nullified if your throttle control isn't perfect. You say everything is important when riding. I won't disagree outright, but would qualify it by saying that not all things are equally important.

TZ I'm quite taken by the idea of throttle control and body position you bring up. Here's why, during slow speed practice I often lean forward to wieght the front and 'stick it'. Likewise, when I lean on the front, I unload the back and then can slip the rear using the throttle to break it loose. This is particularly easy to do in the dirt, more difficult on asphalt.

Am I nuts or does the idea of leaning BACK and then trying to slide the rear sound like a recipe for disaster? I worry because overwieghting the rear with body position could, with a generous application of throttle, wind up in someone losing the front--does that make sense?
 
Am I nuts or does the idea of leaning BACK and then trying to slide the rear sound like a recipe for disaster? I worry because overwieghting the rear with body position could, with a generous application of throttle, wind up in someone losing the front--does that make sense?

The biggest argument I can see for sitting forward if you're trying to slide the rear is that it's easier to get the rear sliding. If you're initiating the slide with a quicker than normal application of throttle, you can get the tire spinning before much weight can transfer to the rear. If you're sitting back, it takes more throttle to spin the rear in the first place.

On a sportbike on asphalt, sitting fore and aft isn't going to make much difference for front end traction. First, you can't move more than about six inches, so that 38 pound weight shift becomes less than 20. Second, the bike is a bigger percentage of the overall weight, so the % bias change is minimal -- about 3%. Third, in addition to weight transferring to the rear, so does cornering load.

This is a concept that is very different for bikes than for cars. When a car transfers weight to the rear, the cornering load at each end remains the same. Because a bike is leaning over, the front not only unweights, but gets pulled to the inside of the arc to some degree, which reduces the lateral load on that end.

I am not well versed in the dirt. My sense is that it could be different as some conditions depend on there being enough weight on a tire to push it through the loose surface material into more compacted dirt with better traction. Lots of dirt riders I know stress the importance of sitting forward and that might be one of the reasons. Someone else may be better able to say.
 
I'm pretty sure you have not analyzed your seating position enough yet. Have you tried figure 8's while: standing/sitting off the left side/ sitting off the right side/ sitting back/ sitting forward/ sidesaddle ?

Please spend at least 8 hours practicing each one and report back with your findings. This could possibly revolutionize motorcycle riding everywhere !

And don't forget, it's a completely different experience depending on whether you're wearing boxers or briefs. I spent 78 weeks learning to start my bike while wearing boxers, then I switched to briefs and had to learn all over again. Then I started wearing boxer briefs and was thankful I had both experiences. All I need now is 34 weeks of practice squeezing the clutch lever, 49 weeks of clicking the transmission into gear, and 4 years of practice twisting the throttle, then I might be ready to actually ride on the road (if I can get out of the figure-eight shaped trench I'm stuck in after riding 1,650,427 laps around my parking lot course. :thumbup
 
I've found some writing on some of the dynamics involved in rear wheel slip but no complete presentation. The techniques to make the rear slip aren't so hard, feeling very subtle changes in slip is necessary and that takes time. When I want the rear tire to slip I set up a turn where I know it can happen then reduce traction in the rear by small amounts of shifting weight forward, small amounts of throttle and, when I have the nerve, an increase in lean angle by shifting body weight towards the outside of the turn. Sometimes tightening or opening up the turn with steering, in combination with the other things, will increase slip. All the inputs are subtle, not heavy handed. Sometimes increasing power feels like not much more than taking up the chain slack. Sometimes you have to start the slip early with a techniqe you know will work and you know the rear has started the slip but you can't feel it yet. That can be unnerving. Sometimes the best slip comes from leaning upper body weight to the inside and forward, exaclty the direction the bike begins to fall as the slip comes on, this can be unnerviing also.

When I want the most accurate turn I sit back, put more weight on the rear. Depending on speed and turn radius, as I come out of that rear weighted turn the farther back body weight is to start with the more effectively it can be used to slip the rear by shifting it forward.
 
If you're trying to induce a little slide, the safest way to do it is by increasing the demands on traction with one control at a time. Most bikes need to be leaned over quite a bit to slide, assuming good tires and clean, dry pavement. Once near that lean angle, a little more assertive roll-on will get the tire churning and allow you to feel the onset most easily.

Part of the reason you find the other techniques unnerving is that it's very difficult to feel the signs of the tire beginning to slide when you're moving around on the bike.
 
If you're trying to induce a little slide, the safest way to do it is by increasing the demands on traction with one control at a time. Most bikes need to be leaned over quite a bit to slide, assuming good tires and clean, dry pavement. Once near that lean angle, a little more assertive roll-on will get the tire churning and allow you to feel the onset most easily.

Part of the reason you find the other techniques unnerving is that it's very difficult to feel the signs of the tire beginning to slide when you're moving around on the bike.
The less traction the rear tire has to start with the easier it's going to be to increase slip. Lots of lean is one way to reduce traction. Another way is to be in a small diameter turn which I prefer bacuse they are slow. A slow speed fall is preferable to a higher speed fall. Another way to have reduced traction is to be on dirt but so far I prefer to practice on pavement because there's less chance of a fall.

So far I can't slip the rear tire unless I use several controls in a coordinated way. The riding seasin is just getting started. I'll be practicing every day and slip will be on the list.

I'm going to spend a lot more time on slow riding this year. A lot of trails and places I'd like to take the bike are crowded and slow. I should be better at keeping the bike balanced going very slow. I wish I knew more about how the trials riders learn to balance so well and go so slow.
 
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Didn't you fall down something like 9 times last year?

So far I can't slip the rear tire unless I use several controls in a coordinated way.

My advice was aimed at helping you improve your record this season. Take it or leave it.
 
Didn't you fall down something like 9 times last year? My advice was aimed at helping you improve your record this season. Take it or leave it.
It would be interesting to see a video of someone sliping the rear on pavement with one control only. I think you'd have trouble coming up with that.

14 drops since last June. I try to keep a list so I don't forget the lessons learned. My drops are mostly off road front wheel slips. Failure to recover is complicated by the tall seat. Lowering the suspension an inch would probably help but I hesitate to do anything that might change the handling in the parking lot for the worse where the seat height doesn't seem to be an issue.
 
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It would be interesting to see a video of someone sliping the rear on pavement with one control only. I think you'd have trouble coming up with that.

Still waiting for that video of ya'll slipping the rear.
 
ASSHAT,

TZ gives you advice and is obviously a skilled rider with WAY more knowledge than you will ever have. STFU for once and listen.

MODS-please lock this thread, this is the ultimate troll. This guy should be worshiped as King Troll. In porn he would be John Holmes or Jenna Jameson, In Liberal douchebag politics he would be Nancy Pelosi, Feinstein and Barney Frank combined, In conservative rhetoric spewing nonsense he is Rush Limbaugh and O'Riley's ass baby.
 
ASSHAT,

TZ gives you advice and is obviously a skilled rider with WAY more knowledge than you will ever have. STFU for once and listen.

MODS-please lock this thread, this is the ultimate troll. This guy should be worshiped as King Troll. In porn he would be John Holmes or Jenna Jameson, In Liberal douchebag politics he would be Nancy Pelosi, Feinstein and Barney Frank combined, In conservative rhetoric spewing nonsense he is Rush Limbaugh and O'Riley's ass baby.

I beg to differ...

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270975&highlight=210+Nevada

:laughing
 

Naw, Mille is at least fun to read and make fun of. This guy is like the Borg "YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED" or the Terminator "He absolutely will not stop until your are doing figure 8s!". He's relentless and humorless and will not stop until you are doing figure 8s forever.

HUGHFEED.jpg

There will need to be a whole new Barfie for this thread. The most boring, relentless, pointless and onesided thread ever!!!!
 
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please stop this thread already!:))) Let's go out riding instead...

I am going to metcalf tomorrow 8am-1pm from campbell. anyone wants to ride?
 
^ Wait, WAT?!?! :wtf:wow

You're going to be riding a DIRT BIKE in the DIRT?!?!!?

How many years of parking lot figure 8's have you done to prepare yourself for this monumental task?!?!? You will not be able to control that beastly bike without thousands of parking lot hours logged, you know????

Damn n00bs!! :hand
 
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