Slow speed practice, no experts please

[froride1]

Charlie listen to me. Check this out http://www.driversedmi.com/Motorcycle.html it is only 15 miles away in Bad Axe. Take all the courses Beginning rider course, Experienced rider course and Performance rider course. Open your mind and take the classes, listen to the instructors they know what they are doing. Put your theories on hold and listen to what experts, yes experts, have to say and teach you.

 

[thumbus2003]

AHH, I can't stop reading it!

 

[beginner]

He is convinced that the rear tire is tracking OUTSIDE the front even though his own videos prove otherwise.

You like to put words in my mouth. When you want to quote me copy and paste what I wrote. Slip where the front wheel is pointed away from the direction of the turn and the rear is tracking outside the front, commonly called drifting, is fun to watch. I never claimed to be doing that.

what he really wants--a way to guarantee he's never injured.

I've been dumping the bike off road regularly since I started. Fall #14 about 1 1/2 weeks ago was the first one that caused an injury that slowed me down, a front wheel slip and fall, that bruised or may be cracked a rib directly below my right arm, which got a deep tricept bruise that cleared up quickly (which probably means the arm bruised the rib). For some days I could ride short sessions only and turning practice was pretty much impossible. I accept those dumps or I'd stop riding. What I don't want is an injury that ends my riding.

He's working at a low speed because he's deathly afraid of getting hurt.

Motor police and gymkhana riders practice at low speed and no one says they are "deathly afraid."

By his own admission he stays under 30mph and does only low speed manuvers.

One of last summer's beginner rules, the 30 mph speed limit, hasn't been changed. The original reason for that rule was, below that speed, my limited braking skills were still adequate. I don't travel long miles and deer are super abundant.

He's big dumb happy bag o' fear and air.

If you must do personal attacks save them for PM's where the admins won't see them.

BUT nothing is ever going to come of this slip/slide thing until he agrees to define what the words really mean. He isn't slipping the rear, he's changing the slip angle, until he can admit that and then move to a definition of what SLIP/SLIDE/DRIFT is...we're talking to a wall.

I'm learning to reduce the traction of the rear tire until it begins to slide/slip noticably to the outside. I'm agreeable to any term that everyone understands.

PS. the reason he thinks traction is variable with turning radius is because he can't see traction as the fixed value and turning radius as the variable.

In a tight turn the contact patch of the rear tire is scrubbing and scuffing more than it will in a more gradual turn. That tendency can be used to increase slip/slide or what ever you'd prefer to call it.

Up to now I have only been successful sliping the rear on pavement in my figure 8 box. Today I tried it in more free form turns out in the open and got a few to go.

 

[tzrider]

Beginner wrote:

You like to put words in my mouth. When you want to quote me copy and paste what I wrote. Slip where the front wheel is pointed away from the direction of the turn and the rear is tracking outside the front, commonly called drifting, is fun to watch. I never claimed to be doing that.

Then, in the very same post, he wrote:

I'm learning to reduce the traction of the rear tire until it begins to slide/slip noticably to the outside. I'm agreeable to any term that everyone understands.

Am I the only one getting a headache?

 

[froride1]

Charlie listen to me. Check this out http://www.driversedmi.com/Motorcycle.html it is only 15 miles away in Bad Axe. Take all the courses Beginning rider course, Experienced rider course and Performance rider course. Open your mind and take the classes, listen to the instructors they know what they are doing. Put your theories on hold and listen to what experts, yes experts, have to say and teach you.

So Beginner, no comment? Or are you unwilling to even consider getting real training?

 

[RhythmRider]

Dunno if this has been posted yet.

[youtube]9f3Z_2zf1as[/youtube]

 

[beginner]

So Beginner, no comment? Or are you unwilling to even consider getting real training?

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll keep it in mind.

 

[CaptCrash]

beginner:

Do you hold a valid license to operate a motorcycle in Michigan?

Is it an full endorsement or a learner's permit?

Do you have a speedometer on your motorcycle?

If not, how do you know your speed when traveling on public roads--current, active, right now speed?

Often you tell us that distance is the primary cause of your inability to get trained or find other riders to ride with. Is "Bad Axe" really only 15 miles from your location? Today I traveled 23 miles to train new riders. Several riders traveled more than 25 miles to get trained. In view of this statement let me copy and paste from about 3 posts back, you said and I QUOTE:

Motorcycle heaven would be a practice yard full of riders who are mostly much more accomplished than me. I'm sure motor police have that opportunity. The closest I can come to that is watching videos online.

I need to ask: How far is too far to go to get to motorcycle heaven? it's only 15 miles away...

And just to be clear, the Gymkhana guys look to hit 40 very easily and regularly they are hustling.




OH, and big ol' bag of fear and air is actually a term of endearment. I like like you! You're the crazy uncle I always wanted!.

 

[CaptCrash]

I think getting endorsed and trained would be GREAT for you!

Here's the Maier Schedule:

Bad Axe, Michigan

May 8-9-10 Basic Rider Course (BRC)
May 17 Experienced Rider Course (ERC)
June 12-13-14 Basic Rider Course (BRC)
July 10-11-12 Basic Rider Course (BRC)
August 7-8-9 Basic Rider Course (BRC)

And how to get there from Port Austin Michigan:

1: Start out going EAST on W SPRING ST/MI-25 toward LAKE ST. 0.0 mi
2: Turn RIGHT onto LAKE ST/MI-25. Continue to follow LAKE ST. 0.7 mi
3: LAKE ST becomes N VAN DYKE RD/MI-53. 16.5 mi
4: Turn RIGHT onto W HURON AVE/MI-53/S VAN DYKE RD. 0.0 mi
5: End at Bad Axe, MI

Estimated Time: 22 minutes Estimated Distance: 17.21 miles

Super easy, super close, get versed on language and basic skills AND get your endorsement. Why not? What's to lose?



Hats off to Froride1!

*mods, if I've gone to far here, I apologize, let me know and I'll back off.

 

[beginner]

Do you hold a valid license to operate a motorcycle in Michigan?

You've asked this already and been answered but it's a moot point now. Over the winter Michigan passed a law that allows ORV's, including my KLX, to be ridden along road sides in certain counties, including my county. This gives me all the mobility I need off the farm.

Do you have a speedometer on your motorcycle?

My hand held GPS is always on the bike and is a very accurate speedometer when the bike is on the road. I know this from using it in the car and comparing with the car's speedometer. The most valuable thing I get from the GPS is not speed but moving time which I use to monitor practice time. Too much practice is a burnout.

how do you know your speed when traveling on public roads--current, active, right now speed?

The GPS is a better speedometer than the one in my car. It's fine for the bike.

Often you tell us that distance is the primary cause of your inability to get trained or find other riders to ride with. Is "Bad Axe" really only 15 miles from your location?

The place is called Bad Axe, the quotation marks aren't needed. Training courses are a contentious issue that's best avoided and not the topic of the thread. We have shared our view of training courses in the past.

I need to ask: How far is too far to go to get to motorcycle heaven? it's only 15 miles away...

Bad Axe is THE place to buy groceries and tractor parts. I've asked sheriff patrol officers if they've ever seen anyone practicing besides me anywhere in the county, the answer is no.

 

[beginner]

Here's the Maier Schedule: Bad Axe, Michigan

May 8-9-10 Basic Rider Course (BRC)

Now that I know the dates I might ask Mr. Maier if it's okay to observe one of the parking lot sessions.

I made a Uturn video today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJPWoEdBxN4

 

[B-Cuz]

I can see the 8.....looks like the winter showers weren't able to wash it away...

 

[CaptCrash]

You've asked this already and been answered but it's a moot point now.

SO to pull the words--when you're discussing riding, you have no credentials from the state of Michigan and you've never been tested in any way, shape or form to prove your skills. That's cool, there's lots of guys just like you who ride without a license! In fact we encounter them all the time in training. From the Michigan State Police:

"Training, Education and Licensure
Almost half of all motorcycle fatalities involved riders not properly licensed.

Michigan law requires a special endorsement to an operators license to drive a motorcycle. It is a misdemeanor to drive a motorcycle without an endorsement and can add points to your driving record. If you are under 18 years of age, you must complete a rider education course approved by the Secretary of State before you can apply for a motorcycle permit. Although permit applicants over 18 years are not required to take an instruction course, it is highly recommended for new riders of all ages.

Training and education is an ongoing process for every rider and should not end with licensure. Contact your local Secretary of State branch office for additional information and for the nearest motorcycle safety course.

All motorcycle riders must take a knowledge test and successfully complete a motorcycle safety class or pass a rider skills test. A motorcycle endorsement is required to legally ride on public streets and highways."

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1593_3504_22760-13676--,00.html

AND

"Get Your Endorsement!
To operate a motorcycle on public roads, you must possess a valid Michigan driver's license with a motorcycle endorsement. Operating a motorcycle without an endorsement can cost you--it is a violation resulting in court fines and up to a $300 Driver Responsibility fee.

Definition of a Motorcycle
A motorcycle is a two- or three-wheeled motor vehicle with a saddle or seat that produces more than 2.0 brake horsepower and can attain speeds greater than 30 mph on a level surface. Some vehicles, such as "pocket rockets" or "mini choppers," may meet this definition, but do not have all of the equipment required by Michigan law to legally drive them on public roads and will not be registered by the Department of State." http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127-1627_46351_46353---,00.html

Getting an endorsement would be easy AND keep you in compliance with state law! It would also expose you to slow speed drills that you can mimic and practice. ALSO since there are multiple courses nearby, perhaps you could use that space to practice in. After all, if you are doing slow speed drills, using a range with paint on the ground and tested and proven drills would be a great advantage!

Over the winter Michigan passed a law that allows ORV's, including my KLX, to be ridden along road sides in certain counties, including my county.

I'm not worried you're obfuscating here but do you mean they can be ridden on the Road, in the traffic lane? Or are they permissable on the paved shoulder outside the fog line? OR did they have a right of way alongside a paved road? What are the insurance requirements if they are allowed on the paved roadway?...A citation would be great here...or are you appealing to your own authority?

Training courses are a contentious issue that's best avoided and not the topic of the thread. We have shared our view of training courses in the past.

Yes but courses and training can be keys to successful slow speed practice, a course will demonstrate technique and show you drills you can mimic. Personally, after I took my first course I immediately went to the lot and practiced the things they taught.

Bad Axe is THE place to buy groceries and tractor parts. I've asked sheriff patrol officers if they've ever seen anyone practicing besides me anywhere in the county, the answer is no..

Well that's OK they haven't noticed! You're appealing to the wrong authority! Maier NOW teaches in your 'hood and has for at least 6 weeks! I would suggest just GOING to watch the session on the 9th and 10th. It's probably in a place where you can sit in your car and watch! PLUS the people who come will be INTERESTED in improving their skills! You might be able to set up some slow speed practice with someone. This is your chance to bump into the motorcycling community on the Thumb! Chase it!

 

[Gnarly Cranium]

Why only go and watch when you could participate?

 

[B-Cuz]

Honestly I'm on the verge of receiving a suspension if I posted my uncensored thoughts/comments.

 

[froride1]

He doesn't have any intention of getting any training because any course will demonstrate the error of his ways. He can't accept that what he thinks he knows about riding might be wrong and cannot tolerate anyone tell him to ride or practice differently than he does. He shows this in the contempt he holds experts and training courses in. If you read back through this crazy thread he talks about experts as only having taking his money as thier motivation for giving advice. Beginner is a know it all that knows nothing about riding and his ego will never let him see things differently.

 

[Kornholio]

 

[crazybob]

I have long since wondered how he got his bike TO the parking lot to begin with... is there 'traffic'?

 

[beginner]

I have long since wondered how he got his bike TO the parking lot to begin with... is there 'traffic'?

The parking lot is a few hundred yards from where the bike is parked.

Why only go and watch when you could participate?

I've had discussions in the past with Crash about formal instruction. What would interest me is traditional ongoing instruction for the purpose of making practice more productive. I've had this with horses and musical instruments. The teacher observes what the student is doing, gives homework assignments, then there are future lessons for more assessment and more assignements. The weekend seminar course offered in Bad Axe is designed for people riding a motorcycle for the first time and who want to pass a State test with the least fuss and bother. My goal is to perfect the test, not simply pass the test.

Crash, I have no monetary interest in any part of the mtorcycle business. I just want to talk about practice with people who practice. Please don't push products in this thread.

Speaking of practice, last year I spent lots of time on Uturns. I have no problem with them on the first try, slow in first gear, but it's more stylish to do them in second gear at higher speed which I haven't had the confidence to do on the first try in the ROW. That might finally be changing.

If I ride through the maneuver consciously sitting back, arms extended I seem to have more confidence leaning the bike and steering trough the maneuver.

Last night I hit on the best title for an honest motorcycle instruction book,
"Ride Like A Pro--in 5,000 Easy Lessons"

 

[CaptCrash]

Crash, I have no monetary interest in any part of the mtorcycle business. I just want to talk about practice with people who practice. Please don't push products in this thread.

By products do you mean Michigan state law? When slow speed practicing you should really obey all the pertinent traffic laws when going to and from your practice site.

When slow speed practicing it's best to have at least one session that is supervised and evaluated. The best way to do this is take a course as suggested by the Michigan State Police, so you can learn appropriate technique.

And finally, if you're learning to slow speed practice you shouldn't really banty about terms like "Pro" if you ride illegally, have never been trained and aren't conversant in standard industry terminology.

That said--Today I will be supervising slow speed practice with 8 interested riders. They will be practicing swerving, cornering and braking--the three skills found most lacking in accident involved riders. Slow speed practice SHOULD have a purpose. For these rider's it's passing thier state required riding skills evaluation.

I would suggest for your slow speed practice that swerving is a 'must have' skill. Since you live in a rural area you run the risk of encountering livestock, wild animals, dogs, cats and other unpredictable dangers. Have you tried swerving at 15mph yet? We can help you set up a 13ft gate and barrier if you'd like!

What would interest me is traditional ongoing instruction for the purpose of making practice more productive. I've had this with horses and musical instruments. The teacher observes what the student is doing, gives homework assignments, then there are future lessons for more assessment and more assignements. The weekend seminar course offered in Bad Axe is designed for people riding a motorcycle for the first time and who want to pass a State test with the least fuss and bother. My goal is to perfect the test, not simply pass the test.

That would be the experienced rider course, followed by creating relationships with people in your area. ALL which can be done simply by driving/riding 22 minutes and talking to other humans--why is that soooo tough? HELL, you don't even know what's on the test do ya? You're not practicing to perfect the test, you're practicing to NOT take the test.

Why?

Your main motivation: FEAR OF FAILURE.


(i said 'by products' at the beginning of this thread--come on guys, that's comic gold waiting to be mined...)