crazybob
Lanesharing is caring
WHERE IS SARAH CONNOR?
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Slow speed practice, no experts please
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WHERE IS SARAH CONNOR?
Roadstergal
Sergeant Jackrum
Do Figure 8s if you want to live.
crazybob
Lanesharing is caring
The T-1000 had some pretty good moto skills, it must have done a lot of figure-8s to get it up the staircase... and then jump it into a freaking helicopter
john15i177
ScruffMcgruff.Chicago,IL
im amazed at the popularity of this thread
Gnarly Cranium
milk crate goes where?
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2007
- Location
- Zombie Island
- Moto(s)
- '06 Ninja 650r
- Name
- Leah
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- AMA #: 1079574
it's the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend... some people started posting it not knowing what it was, then they just kept on posting it forever just because...
beginner
New member
When I've got a video of that you'll be the first to see it. I got to ride another bike besides my own today, the first time since June last year. It is a TW200 and it felt strange to be sitting so close the ground. It also seemed like, once you got used to it it would be easier to ride than the KLX. I stopped off at the parking lot with it for a short time. The wide tires made the bike harder to lean, there wasn't time to sort that out but the other thing that was interesting is the fat rear tire was much easier to unhook and you feel more secure 5 1/2" closer to the ground. I'm going to borrow that bike for a couple hours and see what it's like to play with it's rear tire.
It would be more interesting for TZ to talk about his own practice. Besides TZ was just kidding around. He knows the only way to unhook the rear with only one control would be to go in a straight line and try to break the rear tire loose with a lot of throttle. That would be a foolish thing to do. He didn't mean for me to try that so he must have been kidding.
I started brand new last June and got in 300 hours before winter shut things down. That 300 hours was half practice, half riding around mostly off road. Things started up again in March and may be I have another 100 hours most of which is practice because it's mud season. The trails won't be fit to drive until June.
CaptCrash
Dazed and Confused
The TW is truly famous for instability and slide!
Nice thing is it's a bike of choice for the MSF--they LOVE them as trainers. 
Welcome to the darkness...
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Gnarly Cranium
milk crate goes where?
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2007
- Location
- Zombie Island
- Moto(s)
- '06 Ninja 650r
- Name
- Leah
- BARF perks
- AMA #: 1079574
They put me on the one TW they had for the MSF (you! you're tall, you get that one!), so it was the first motorcycle I ever piloted, and I think it was much better suited for the situation (and me) than the others (Eliminators and Rebels) would've been. It felt very manageable and cooperative-- I did much, much better on the U-turn type limited space maneuvers than I thought I would, throttle and clutch balance was hard to wrangle but the bike itself almost felt like it would happily stand still under me without tipping over. That and I guess the height thing is an issue too, being crouched down low just feels awkward to me when I'm trying to keep my balance and have to put a foot out to catch myself. The edges of the seat really started to hurt my legs after a while, though.
Of course, that's why race cars have extra wide tires... because they have less traction. :|
Bwahaha, you cannot escape!
RhythmRider
Still Rhythm Rydin'
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2006
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- Livermore, CA
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Suzuki SV650N,
Yamaha YZF-R3
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- Aaron
- BARF perks
- AMA #: 2821744
He said one control at a time. Meaning you would not add lean angle and throttle at the same time, but instead, you would add lean angle, arrest lean angle, and then add throttle.
Look, man... you have talked about logical fallacies and arguments based on merit. Those are usually taught along with critical thinking, and you seem to fancy yourself a critical thinker, but I would argue that you're not. There are three distinct aspects to critical thinking:
1) Independent thinking
2) Suspension of judgment
3) Willingness to abandon or modify prior views
So far it seems like you are a really independent thinker. That much should be plainly obvious based on your entire philosophy of practicing alone and experimenting with techniques. But you're getting good advice from good riders. The internet has opened a vast number of doors for you to exploit so that you can have access to people who you'd otherwise never know existed. These people have spent decades training and practicing, and you have to believe that they've had some degree of success to be doing it as long as they have. You are nothing short of lucky to be in the same conversation with some of the people on this board, because frankly their time is worth more than you are giving them credit for, and they are FREELY handing it out to you in an effort to steer you in the right direction. Look at everything you know and everything you have learned and ask yourself how much of that would be possible without somebody there to teach it to you. And now instead of absorbing extremely useful knowledge, information that many people have to pay for, you basically cover your ears and sing loudly until it all goes away. This place is valuable. Utilize it. Look at my fucking signature. Doesn't that philosophy make sense to you? Before you can know anything, you must admit that you know nothing! Until you figure that out, you're on your own. And if you choose to accept that you will learn everything independently, then my friend, there is absolutely no point for you to continue posting here.
beginner
New member
I was surprised how quickly I got used to the bike given my limited experience. I felt like a midget sitting so low. It's easier to ride slow in the woods but harder to ride fast because it doesn't handle the rough stuff as well as the KLX. I felt unsure of the tires but I suppose that would be normal. The TW was easy to turn but harder to lean. The shorter wheel base was noticable. It would be a nice if the throttle required more effort. The KLX is significantly quieter than the TW and that's important if you're going to spend a lot of time motoring around in one spot--PLP.The TW is truly famous for instability and slide!
I was clueless when I bought the KLX used. I'd read online comments that it was a good beginner bike. I've made it work but it ain't no beginner bike because of the tall seat. At least half my falls, probably more, involved complications of the tall seat. May be the tall seat is what keeps me practicing.
I'm not trying to say the TW, or its tires, are bad. Based on yesterday's experience, if I had one, I'd ride it once in a while when I don't want the challenge of the taller bike. Just because the rear tire of the TW is easier to unhook in slow tight turns does not mean it has less traction in all situations. If I get the chance to borrow the TW for some parking lot time may be I'll find out. At this point I'm guessing the TW rear tire will be more predictable and easier to feel but that's just guessing.
Perhaps TZ will elaborate and explain what he meant. When I compared TZ's suggestion to my direct experience I wasn't able to apply it in practice.
I try to be cautious. I can't think of a machine devised by man that is less forgiving of mistakes than motorcycles.
I practice alone only because there is no alternative. Motorcycle heaven would be a practice yard full of riders who are mostly much more accomplished than me. I'm sure motor police have that opportunity. The closest I can come to that is watching videos online.
In a text forum like this I think the better approach is describing direct experience.
So far the most valuable resourse on the internet has been videos of other people practicing or competing in rodeos or gymkhana events. When I started, the maneuvering skills of the motor police were incomprehensible to me. Today, I still couldn't follow them through a pattern, even on my smaller bike, but I'm starting to see the path to those skills. The Asian gymkhana riders are another level above that.
The only good reason for me, or anyone, to read this thread, or comment, is because they might learn something. The more you know the more there is to learn, it's all good.
tzrider
Write Only User
RhythmRider interpreted my post correctly.
Reading your reply, I assumed you were being deliberately obtuse and really are here to troll. On the long odds that you're not, I'll try again.
In order to slide, you're going to have to demand a little more traction than what is available. To do this most safely, it's easiest if you first place the bike into a condition where it's close to the grip limit and then push it beyond the limit using the throttle alone.
At the lean angles you've filmed, you're not very close to the traction limit, which is why you have not been able to get the rear loose when you open the throttle. At deeper lean angles, you would consume enough of the available traction that more assertive throttle application could induce a slide.
The reason you find the limit so unpredictable is that you're simultaneously changing more than one of the variables that affect traction. If you screw the throttle on while increasing lean angle, for example, the rise in demand on traction is much sharper and harder to predict. It's not that it can't be done that way, but it's a lot harder. Your complaint about the difficulty of predicting traction bears that out.
beginner
New member
My perception is the challenge is feeling slip at low levels and, as that improves, causing slip will get easier. In the figure 8 I start the process of sliping the rear at about 1/4 of the circumfrence from the center of the figure 8 by shifting weight forward but don't start to feel anything until about half way around then the challenge is to keep the slip going. As things progress I might increase the lean angle of the bike with a bit of counter balancing and usually with a bit of throttle. Sometimes I can prolong the slip by counter steering. I don't initiate those things simultaneously but in the end all three MIGHT be progressing simultaneously in the best slips. Again, my perception, so far, is getting a good slip is not as dependent on lean or speed as on being able to feel ever smaller amounts of slip and using weight shifting, changing lean angle and drag or pull on the rear tire effectively, meaning gently. That's how it feels right now, may after a few hundred more practice tries I'll be describing it differently.
I don't practice slips at higher speeds or greater lean angles because I'm learning with what I'm doing now and going faster means it will hurt more if I fall.
tzrider
Write Only User
Do you understand that increasing lean angle by counterbalancing does not increase cornering load on the tire? The only things that will change the shear load on the tire is to alter the speed, the arc or the road surface camber.
Increasing lean angle by counter balancing might affect traction if you can get the lean angle to the point where there's less rubber on the ground. With the tires on your bike, that might be possible; on a sportbike it's not likely. The other way in which lean angle can affect traction is in making the suspension less effective at absorbing bumps. I wouldn't think that's much of a factor in your parking lot.
beginner
New member
It's possible to decrease traction without increasing cornering load. Engine drag will decrease traction if it's combined with weight shifting forward and/or changing lean angle +/- In lean angle changes it feels like the tread lifting off unhooks a tiny bit faster than than the tread coming on to the pavement can hook up. I learned I'm better at sliping the tire turning to the right than to the left because I'm comfortable counter balancing to the outside to increase slip in right turns and uncomfortable doing it turning to the left. Counter balancing to increase (or decrease) lean angle can have a dramatic effect on the progress of a slip in my experience. I think it's just another variable that destabilizes the tread. The more the tread scrubs and scuffs the less force is takes to increase it but it gets harder to balance the bike. The forces involved seem to be reletive and progressive, not absolute. I'd like to find a motorcycle dynamics treatment of slip, that includes the rider's influence, to see if it fits or contradicts my perceptions of what's happening.
B-Cuz
Honorably Discharged
tzrider
Write Only User
If I thought increasing cornering load was all it took to slide a tire, why would I suggest screwing on the throttle to induce a slide?
I'm an idiot to keep coming back to this "discussion."
CaptCrash
Dazed and Confused
TZ--first, it's always nice to know that new clowns are willing to join this old circus.
I believe that beginner is operating from a flawed basic assumption. He believes that "Slip Angle" is something he can feel...which perhaps he can--he feels the back being dragged onto a tighter line. He then misapplies 'slip' instead of 'slip angle' (something that increases with decreasing radius) to what's going on. Meaning: sure, he's increasing the slip angle but not increasing what we commonly call 'slide'. This twisted basic premise (that he can somehow change 'slip angle' into a side-slip or SLIDE) creates a vocabulary connundrum that is impassable.
He is convinced that the rear tire is tracking OUTSIDE the front even though his own videos prove otherwise.
Until this vocabulary problem is fixed we pound the same nail and get the same result. beginner's shining path is one that he thinks points to safety, which is what he really wants--a way to guarantee he's never injured. Unfortunately, we all realize that his 'shining path' with it's flawed theory actually leads to self-delusion, risk and potential catastrophic injury.
Since motorcyclists tend to be a social people, we keep seeing his errors and trying to correct them--we don't want him to hurt himself. We're basically good people--if we see a 5 year old playing with a knife we step in and say "whoooooa." beginner is like the kid from my older brother's high school class. He was sure that if a car was going 90mph and you turned the wheel HARD that the mass of the car would overwhelm the available traction and the car would continue on in a straight line.
Late one night on 280 he went to prove his theory and died for it.
In the end beginner's inability to "speak" motorcycle and his desire to misinterpet torsional deformity and changes in slip angles as some kind of slide don't really endanger him. He's working at a low speed because he's deathly afraid of getting hurt. By his own admission he stays under 30mph and does only low speed manuvers. We don't need to fear for him because he's full of his own fear. He's afraid of getting hurt. He's afraid of admitting he's wrong. He's big dumb happy bag o' fear and air.
I think the intriguing/annoying thing about this whole thread is that he's so profoundly reluctant to admit his error that none of us can resist pointing at it. I would offer that he does, indeed, take coaching. Take his problem with skidding the rear and underbraking with the front. We helped him fix that. There was a little light, a little hope, a chance.
BUT nothing is ever going to come of this slip/slide thing until he agrees to define what the words really mean. He isn't slipping the rear, he's changing the slip angle, until he can admit that and then move to a definition of what SLIP/SLIDE/DRIFT is...we're talking to a wall.
PS. the reason he thinks traction is variable with turning radius is because he can't see traction as the fixed value and turning radius as the variable.
OH! From the Urban Dictionary:
Jailhouse Lawyer
1. A prison inmate who, despite having no legal education, studies law and argues for the rights of other inmates.
2. A lawyer who throws out any and all arguments, even blatantly wrong ones, for his client.
I believe that beginner is operating from a flawed basic assumption. He believes that "Slip Angle" is something he can feel...which perhaps he can--he feels the back being dragged onto a tighter line. He then misapplies 'slip' instead of 'slip angle' (something that increases with decreasing radius) to what's going on. Meaning: sure, he's increasing the slip angle but not increasing what we commonly call 'slide'. This twisted basic premise (that he can somehow change 'slip angle' into a side-slip or SLIDE) creates a vocabulary connundrum that is impassable.
He is convinced that the rear tire is tracking OUTSIDE the front even though his own videos prove otherwise.
Until this vocabulary problem is fixed we pound the same nail and get the same result. beginner's shining path is one that he thinks points to safety, which is what he really wants--a way to guarantee he's never injured. Unfortunately, we all realize that his 'shining path' with it's flawed theory actually leads to self-delusion, risk and potential catastrophic injury.
Since motorcyclists tend to be a social people, we keep seeing his errors and trying to correct them--we don't want him to hurt himself. We're basically good people--if we see a 5 year old playing with a knife we step in and say "whoooooa." beginner is like the kid from my older brother's high school class. He was sure that if a car was going 90mph and you turned the wheel HARD that the mass of the car would overwhelm the available traction and the car would continue on in a straight line.
Late one night on 280 he went to prove his theory and died for it.
In the end beginner's inability to "speak" motorcycle and his desire to misinterpet torsional deformity and changes in slip angles as some kind of slide don't really endanger him. He's working at a low speed because he's deathly afraid of getting hurt. By his own admission he stays under 30mph and does only low speed manuvers. We don't need to fear for him because he's full of his own fear. He's afraid of getting hurt. He's afraid of admitting he's wrong. He's big dumb happy bag o' fear and air.
I think the intriguing/annoying thing about this whole thread is that he's so profoundly reluctant to admit his error that none of us can resist pointing at it. I would offer that he does, indeed, take coaching. Take his problem with skidding the rear and underbraking with the front. We helped him fix that. There was a little light, a little hope, a chance.
BUT nothing is ever going to come of this slip/slide thing until he agrees to define what the words really mean. He isn't slipping the rear, he's changing the slip angle, until he can admit that and then move to a definition of what SLIP/SLIDE/DRIFT is...we're talking to a wall.
PS. the reason he thinks traction is variable with turning radius is because he can't see traction as the fixed value and turning radius as the variable.
OH! From the Urban Dictionary:
Jailhouse Lawyer
1. A prison inmate who, despite having no legal education, studies law and argues for the rights of other inmates.
2. A lawyer who throws out any and all arguments, even blatantly wrong ones, for his client.
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