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Student Loan Debt Forgiveness?

Anyone who willfully and intentionally takes on $100k in debt for a degree in Social Work or Nutrition and Athletics is only a victim of their own stupidity.

It is almost like some people do the stupidest shit imaginable and take school for what interests them, rather than doing an analysis of what the market will provide for income once they graduate in their chosen field and what the likelihood of a favorable placement in said field is.

:laughing

I have to assume that is sarcasm.
 
Probably triggered by the username. I think Dan knew exactly what he was doing when he joined in 2002...

YYKbMS3.gif

one of my fav shows of all time
 
It is almost like some people do the stupidest shit imaginable and take school for what interests them, rather than doing an analysis of what the market will provide for income

dude.

no.
 
dude.

no.

Yeah, nah to the no no, no matter where the flow flows.

The ENTIRE point of (mostly) free public college is for people to EXPLORE interests, proficiencies, and occupations, not tie themselves to "analysis of what the market will provide for income"

Fuck right off with that bullshit and hypocrisy. So much 20/20 hindsight here it's tiring...
 
Yeah, nah to the no no, no matter where the flow flows.

The ENTIRE point of (mostly) free public college is for people to EXPLORE interests, proficiencies, and occupations, not tie themselves to "analysis of what the market will provide for income"

Fuck right off with that bullshit and hypocrisy. So much 20/20 hindsight here it's tiring...

Yup.

Also, wages be damned, I think that more social workers, sociologists, teachers, etc. would be way better for society than more MBAs
 
Yup.

Also, wages be damned, I think that more social workers, sociologists, teachers, etc. would be way better for society than more MBAs

Right. There’s a serious shortage in these occupations because of extensive education requirements and low starting pay. Now that the feds and state recognizes how instrumental these support workers are post-Covid and funded positions, the people don’t exist to fill them.

To add to the low starting pay insult, some public sector salary schedules are capped at $99K after ten years. Longevity stipends are becoming a thing but they are only $2K a year, or $200 per month over 10 month schedule. People flee for consultancies in the private sector where $200K is the norm.

Good health care and pensions don’t sway 20-somethings very much…
 
Right. There’s a serious shortage in these occupations because of extensive education requirements and low starting pay. Now that the feds and state recognizes how instrumental these support workers are post-Covid and funded positions, the people don’t exist to fill them.

To add to the low starting pay insult, some public sector salary schedules are capped at $99K after ten years. Longevity stipends are becoming a thing but they are only $2K a year, or $200 per month over 10 month schedule. People flee for consultancies in the private sector where $200K is the norm.

Good health care and pensions don’t sway 20-somethings very much…

One would hope that shortages would drive up salaries.
 
you would think that, but nope. The current system is not very good at accurately valuing a lot of work.

Our district made a bunch of cash advances available for resource teacher candidates but it’s paltry. They’re never going to move the needle that way.
 
Our district made a bunch of cash advances available for resource teacher candidates but it’s paltry. They’re never going to move the needle that way.

I see that in our local district too. My wife has been a substitute teacher for over 10 years.
They actually increased substitute pay a decent amount during covid, but the overall pay scale ain't great for the requirements. The state credential tests are difficult. She wasn't able to pass RICA and now other tests she did pass have expired. Otherwise made it through a credential program, but no credential, just student loan debt.

Anyways, if salaries won't go up enough to meet needs/demands, that means it hasn't gotten bad enough. And bad enough all over to put pressure on the state level.
 
I mean, I think everyone agrees the education system needs a great deal of reform and that costs for education are far out of whack with the current need to serve our workforce.

None of your questions however respond to the question asked as to why the taxpayer should take on the debt to bail out people willfully participating in this bad system.

It is not the responsibility of the tax payer to bail out struggling citizens in a poorly functioning system.

It's also not the responsibility for tax payers to bail out businesses that made bad decisions as well but, oh no, we can't let capitalism actually do what's it's supposed to do and allow businesses to fail due to bad decision making on part of those companies leadership teams now can we? Why are individuals in this country who are guilty of making poor choices so quickly vilified and told to "boot strap up" but corporations are not? :nchantr
 
It's also not the responsibility for tax payers to bail out businesses that made bad decisions as well but, oh no, we can't let capitalism actually do what's it's supposed to do and allow businesses to fail due to bad decision making on part of those companies leadership teams now can we? Why are individuals in this country who are guilty of making poor choices so quickly vilified and told to "boot strap up" but corporations are not? :nchantr

I think taxpayers shouldn't have to bear that burden either.

The only issue is, when it comes to some types of businesses, particularly in the financial realm, if they screw up and fail, like an industry wide thing we saw with the subprime loans being packaged in large investment pools, if they weren't bailed out, it would have likely tanked the economy into a depression and hurt the common man even more.

I like that reforms were also made, but our laws / regulators should have never allowed that to happen in the first place. And businesses need to be held accountable to the economy they thrive in, not just to shareholders. Laws need to be changed in that regard. We also probably need to require large financial corporations, and maybe other large fortune 500 type companies, to maybe pay into a rainy day fund of sorts, sufficient in size to be used to bail themselves out for the next time. Just a thought.
 
I see that in our local district too. My wife has been a substitute teacher for over 10 years.
They actually increased substitute pay a decent amount during covid, but the overall pay scale ain't great for the requirements. The state credential tests are difficult. She wasn't able to pass RICA and now other tests she did pass have expired. Otherwise made it through a credential program, but no credential, just student loan debt.

Anyways, if salaries won't go up enough to meet needs/demands, that means it hasn't gotten bad enough. And bad enough all over to put pressure on the state level.

As a secondary teacher I’ve never heard of RICA, but after reviewing the scope of the test, it looks daunting. And it’s all part of moving the goalposts, which the CCTC loves to do. All that used to be on the job training. Very few teachers achieve mastery before 3-5 years of classroom experience. You know, like mentoring POST graduates as an FTO. There are very few people coming in with the skill set to be effective, it’s learned gradually.

New teachers are expected to compete in pedagogical Olympics after elementary swim lessons. That said, these over prepared newbs are really putting the pedal to the metal on substantive and necessary reform from where I sit. I help them navigate institutional and behavioral vagaries and they up my game by bringing the current research and applications. With a side dish of language policing and trauma informed practice. :party

The financial reform thing: we had it, with separation of asset pools, but neoliberal Clinton-era rollbacks (bipartisan) killed that regulation. Now, big money houses BUILD IN bailout protection and precedents to their risk assessment. IIRC up to 70% of TARP money was paid back. PPP was substantially more fraudy as a program.

If we move to the national service model with lots of non-military options in exchange for college fee waivers, it would juice the economy and improve individual outcomes without enriching intermediaries and lenders.
 
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I think taxpayers shouldn't have to bear that burden either.

:thumbup

Congress can adopt any spending program, to expend the money, that congress believes will serve the general welfare.

And Congress is given broad latitude in deciding what will serve the general welfare.

In fact, never in all of American history has a tax been declared unconstitutional on the grounds that it doesn't serve the general welfare. Never has a spending program been declared unconstitutional on the grounds that it doesn't serve the general welfare.
Erwin Chemerinsky, Dean, UC Berkeley Law​

tl/dr: Article I, Section 8, god bless it, serving teh general welfare. :party
 
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As a secondary teacher I’ve never heard of RICA, but after reviewing the scope of the test, it looks daunting. And it’s all part of moving the goalposts, which the CCTC loves to do. All that used to be on the job training. Very few teachers achieve mastery before 3-5 years of classroom experience. You know, like mentoring POST graduates as an FTO. There are very few people coming in with the skill set to be effective, it’s learned gradually.

New teachers are expected to compete in pedagogical Olympics after elementary swim lessons. That said, these over prepared newbs are really putting the pedal to the metal on substantive and necessary reform from where I sit. I help them navigate institutional and behavioral vagaries and they up my game by bringing the current research and applications. With a side dish of language policing and trauma informed practice. :party

The financial reform thing: we had it, with separation of asset pools, but neoliberal Clinton-era rollbacks (bipartisan) killed that regulation. Now, big money houses BUILD IN bailout protection and precedents to their risk assessment. IIRC up to 70% of TARP money was paid back. PPP was substantially more fraudy as a program.

If we move to the national service model with lots of non-military options in exchange for college fee waivers, it would juice the economy and improve individual outcomes without enriching intermediaries and lenders.

Back before my time, when my mom became an elementary school teacher, all she had to pass beyond her credential program (which only took 1 year back then) was the CBEST. And apparently, the CBEST is relatively easy.

They now require CBEST, in addition to a difficult 3-part CSETs, and this RICA. The RICA has some multiple guess questions, but it is heavy on short and long essay questions, which take hours to complete, and are graded for knowledge content as well as ability to write well. I think it really didn't help that my wife grew up ESL.

And the kicker is, from my best perception, she's a natural for elementary teaching, and has a lot of experience by now. Over 10 years subbing with many long term assignments which require lesson plans and such. One year she got a one time emergency permit to teach a class as the teacher of record. She's prepared to step right in and fill a needed teacher position, but can't do that without this elusive credential, that her former program/credential school will seemingly no longer help her with.

:thumbup

Congress can adopt any spending program, to expend the money, that congress believes will serve the general welfare.

And Congress is given broad latitude in deciding what will serve the general welfare.

In fact, never in all of American history has a tax been declared unconstitutional on the grounds that it doesn't serve the general welfare. Never has a spending program been declared unconstitutional on the grounds that it doesn't serve the general welfare.
Erwin Chemerinsky, Dean, UC Berkeley Law​

tl/dr: Article I, Section 8, god bless it, serving teh general welfare. :party

Yup. And as much as I dislike those $billion corporate bail outs, the big difference between that and bailing out you or I is the general welfare aspect.
 
I think taxpayers shouldn't have to bear that burden either.

The only issue is, when it comes to some types of businesses, particularly in the financial realm, if they screw up and fail, like an industry wide thing we saw with the subprime loans being packaged in large investment pools, if they weren't bailed out, it would have likely tanked the economy into a depression and hurt the common man even more.

Subprime loans that were pushed on people that made the mistake of signing up for them due to their inability to understand their mortgage contracts and/or care about the implications of doing so? Sounds about the same as pushing post-secondary education as the sole means of being "successful" as an adult in this country which led to the whole situation of young people being ladened with excessive college loan debt to begin with.

Regardless, if businesses can't be expected to be "allowed" to fail when they fuck up, whatever the costs, then I think we as a society should be willing to accept the fact that, contrary to popular belief, we're not living in a true capitalist society and we need to collectively start admitting that socialism isn't the dirty word that Faux News, Newsmax and OAN want you to think it is.
 
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The entire concept of money in this country is fucked AFAIC. I honestly do not believe there is enough gold bullion to back up all the paper money that has been printed anyway and even then, gold being the "standard" of money is purely human invention regardless. The reality is that the whole concept of currency is an abject failure and we're all just doomed to live by it for the rest of our lives unless we decided to revert back to the hunt, gather and trade days again.
 
Yup. And as much as I dislike those $billion corporate bail outs, the big difference between that and bailing out you or I is the general welfare aspect.

too big to fail … nice work,
if you can get it. :laughing:thumbup

in any event, takes a little steam outa the “taxpayers-shouldn’t-hafta-bear-that-burden” argument, maybe—what’s necessary and proper to promote our general welfare? :dunno
 
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