Student Loan Debt Forgiveness?

[ScarySpikes]

Of course it does. Opportunities does not mean college as the definition of the successful path. There are a bunch of trades that provide a solid path and for those that excel and an opportunity for some to start their own business. I know plenty of people that have done so.

Electrical school. Sheet metal HVAC. Low voltage for AV/ security applications. Bottom line is training. Learn a trade. Get a degree, be great and succeed.

Opportunities are out there for those that apply themselves. Making sure that society pays for you to apply yourself is not.

Make smart choices and make shit happen.

Sure wish the best for everyone chasing success.

Asking me to pay for it? Not exactly loving that.

But... I get where others do.

What exactly do you want your tax dollars going to?

IMO, investing in the people we have in the US to grow the economy, lower dependence on social safety nets as well as likelihood of incarceration later in life is a really good deal.

 

[budman]

Work hard, be smart and inventive.
Be friendly, communicative, organized, trust worthy, work the system and work hard at all of the above.

There is not a singular path and a degree guarantees nothing. Society does not explain that very well.

 

[budman]

What exactly do you want your tax dollars going to?

IMO, investing in the people we have in the US to grow the economy, lower dependence on social safety nets as well as likelihood of incarceration later in life is a really good deal.

I want my tax dollars going to supporting societal needs and a better life for all. Including those that are legitimately challenged on doing so on their own.

Basically I agree with you.

 

[Eldritch]

It's true that I may be playing a penny ante game.

Still feels like a better game than "Lets auger this into the ground"

Meh, I'm not saying you are, just saying that shouting into a well when you're all by yourself isn't very productive.

Things will not get better, only worse.

 

[msethhunter]

How much were your debts 30 years ago compared to today?
How much is college today compared to 30 years ago?
How much are salaries compared to 30 years ago with inflation factored in?

Should students need to go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt to obtain certain jobs? Should some jobs only be for the children of the rich?

Do you feel millions of students being in debt for billions of dollars good or bad for society?

Is it possible that "bootstraps" is not a valid philosophy?

If certain jobs require “hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt” to obtain, and don’t pay well enough to pay off said debts, maybe that’s not the job you should be aiming for?

Debts from 30 years ago weren’t what they are today because “you can be whatever you want to be Timmy” is a false notion propagated by the private education system creating where we are today with ridiculous costs.

Students who are billions of dollars in debt also seem to be okay with not living cheap to pay off said debts and make minimum payments. Many of them are spending thousands a year on Starbucks alone. Make your coffee at home. Pack a lunch. Cook your own dinner. That’s what “bootstraps” means.

I make enough money to have the things I want. I don’t have the things I want because I don’t want the debt associated with those things. I could have a bigger house, a newer nicer car, and more toys to play with. Again, I don’t because I don’t want the debt associated with that. My student loans were astronomical. Try spending $80k on college, then another $80k on licenses, to make $30k for the first decade. My first year flying for an airline, I was making $21.20 an hour. We only get paid gate to gate, and we’re restricted to doing that 100 hrs a month. That usually involves working 6 days on, 12-14 hour duty days for 6 days, and 1-2 days off in between. We average about 75-80 hours a month. We all knew that going in. We (pilots as a group) aren’t asking someone to forgive our poor financial planning.

From the sounds of it, you have a gross misunderstanding of what exactly “picking yourself up by your bootstraps” actually means. It’s pretty hard to get to the top without working your way up there first.

 

[mlm]

You seem unable/unwilling to understand why some people would find any tuition forgiveness to be unfair. A reasonable person might conclude whatever benefits are worthwhile, despite the unfairness. But, you seem unable to acknowledge unfairness, at all.

I'd suggest you consider a more objective evaluation of "fairness"

I think a reasonable person would conclude that all forms of social welfare are "unfair", yet necessary for the type of society they in turn benefit from. Warlords might disagree.

None of this is because I dismiss the value in providing a "fair" society, I just think fairness should be a goal instead of a constraint

 

[mlm]

If certain jobs require “hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt” to obtain, and don’t pay well enough to pay off said debts, maybe that’s not the job you should be aiming for?

I'm assuming Universities maintain these poorer outlook degree programs to provide diversity of subject matter. I think this is valuable, but the degree should be priced accordingly. Loans provide no incentive to do that, and I suspect many times they just enable students to choose the university instead of the degree program.

I'd rather see a merit/aptitude based allocation similar to scholarships. Rather than giving money to students, we should be subsidizing a broader scholarship program (for public universities at least). Those subsidies would be based on some level of labor market forecasting.

 

[mikev]

From the sounds of it, you have a gross misunderstanding of what exactly “picking yourself up by your bootstraps” actually means. It’s pretty hard to get to the top without working your way up there first.

ironical.

The phrase was initially meant to be a mockery, because you literally CANNOT pull yourself up by bootstraps because they are attached to your feet.

 

[Abacinator]

The only argument I'm seeing against loan forgiveness is, BUT IT'S NOT FAAAAAAIR!

 

[GAJ]

States where JC is free to lower income folks and still the much less expensive way to go for those who don't qualify for "free."

Arkansas, California, Delaware, Hawaii, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Tennessee, Virginia, Washington and West Virginia.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/...munity,Virginia, Washington and West Virginia.

I agree with Dennis that a Trade School path should be given equal status at the HS level, but sadly that is not the case.

List of affordable Trade Schools by Region.

https://www.greatvaluecolleges.net/trade-school-programs-by-region/

 

[mean dad]

LOL at "free."

Apologies. Perhaps you can explain what you mean by "cover all cancer treatment/hospitalization costs"; if it doesn't mean free to you or your uncle?

How about, for better analogy, if the government decided to cover all cancer treatment/hospitalization costs, after my uncle couldn't afford treatment and died sooner than he would have with treatment?

 

[byke]

I'm pretty sure we all know what "free" means in the context of socialized services.

 

[GAJ]

I'm pretty sure we all know what "free" means in the context of socialized services.

Or Verizon.

I was forced by them to "upgrade" my 3g phone, (flip phone ) to a 4g one as their 5g network will not support 3g in the new year.

But I could choose a free phone.

$44.

"Upgrade Fee."

 

[mlm]

States where JC is free to lower income folks and still the much less expensive way to go for those who don't qualify for "free."



https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/...munity,Virginia, Washington and West Virginia.

I agree with Dennis that a Trade School path should be given equal status at the HS level, but sadly that is not the case.

List of affordable Trade Schools by Region.

https://www.greatvaluecolleges.net/trade-school-programs-by-region/

Largely +1

I agree with having more options than the standard 4 year university, but many of those alternatives are just as bad if not worse when it comes to predatory student lending. So long as we have a system that involves unsecured cash debt we'll see the problems we have now.

 

[msethhunter]

The only argument I'm seeing against loan forgiveness is, BUT IT'S NOT FAAAAAAIR!

Irony is claiming that people with worthless degrees should be paid the same as someone with challenging meaningful ones.

 

[msethhunter]

ironical.

The phrase was initially meant to be a mockery, because you literally CANNOT pull yourself up by bootstraps because they are attached to your feet.

Seems figures of speech allude you as well.

 

[Karbon]

Irony is claiming that people with worthless degrees should be paid the same as someone with challenging meaningful ones.

What do you mean by "worthless" tho? I mean, this list kind of blows the whole "underwater basket weaving" useless degree college degree narrative

https://educationdata.org/student-l...t out of any,at the Associate's level: $6,500.

 

[bikewanker]

Which came first, high tuition or student loans?

 

[mean dad]

I'm pretty sure we all know what "free" means in the context of socialized services.

Well sure but that's neither here nor there for this discussion. He used the phrase 'gov covers all' to imply that it wouldn't cost his uncle or himself any out-of-pocket money.
I used the phrase 'free' to denote the same thing.

Since the thread is about tuition loans being forgiven and he used the analogy of cancer costs (or someone else did and he responded) and then suggested
about the gov paying; I didn't think I'd need to dissect what 'free' or 'gov covers all costs' means to taxation etc.

 

[Sharxfan]

Please provide statistics on current, single earner families able to earn equity in a 2/3 br home on nothing more than a highschool education. If you cannot, your argument is void.

Kind of late on this one but here in the south oilfield straight out of high school is a big thing and they make good money easily 6 figures. Or construction down here also pays well. If you remove the outliers of big city living most parts of the country you can work blue collar and afford a house. But in high cost of living areas it can be harder. So you would also have to factor in where a person lives.