Student Loan Debt Forgiveness?

[mikev]

Two bedroom sounds odd. Is that assuming a 50/50 split with someone? If not, why isn't the metric a one bedroom? But you could maybe afford a one bedroom apartment on full time minimum wage, though your life would be in a really precarious state.

https://www.rent.com/research/average-rent-price-report/

A recent report by the National Low Income Housing Coalition found that a worker would need to earn at least $25.82 per hour to afford a small two-bedroom rental home. For a one-bedroom, the wage dips slightly to $21.25 per hour, still well out of reach for the majority of low-wage workers.

"Nearly 60 percent of wage earners cannot afford a modest two-bedroom rental home working one full-time job," the report said. "Eleven of the 25 largest occupations in the U.S. pay a lower median hourly wage than the wage a full-time worker needs to earn to afford a modest one- or two-bedroom apartment at the national average fair market rent."

The two-bedroom Housing Wage is currently over 3.5 times greater than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. At those rates, the average minimum-wage worker would have to work 96 hours a week to afford a modest two-bedroom rental.


HOWEVER.

at 7.25 minimum wage, that's $1160/month before taxes are taken out.

The average 1 bedroom is over $1700

 

[stangmx13]

I'll admit that there are people that struggle. If you admit that there are people that succeed. And the criteria for this agreement is that both groups have similar backgrounds.

If the people that are struggling are the average and the people that are succeeding are outliers, your comparison is pointless. We all know that both types exist, so much that it shouldn't need to be said. The frequency of each type is the important bit.

 

[TylerW]

I'll admit that there are people that struggle. If you admit that there are people that succeed. And the criteria for this agreement is that both groups have similar backgrounds.

Please provide statistics on current, single earner families able to earn equity in a 2/3 br home on nothing more than a highschool education. If you cannot, your argument is void.

 

[justanotherg20]

I'm exceedingly torn on this.

IMO the truly disadvantaged don't even really have the chance to go to college; they'd have to get a job ASAP out of high school to boost the family budget, no?

Also, I'd figure the money has to come from somewhere. Even if you say 'well, just don't collect' wasn't the expected student loan repayment money budgeted for something?

Assuming it's government loans (that's the only kind the government can forgive, IIRC they can't tell private lenders to kick rocks like that) then how do the books get balanced with the loss of this expected income? Would we have to sell off national parks to loggers to maintain current service levels? Would we defund existing colleges by about the amount of money no longer coming in?

 

[Johndicezx9]

When the thread gets moved we can reference the political motives of certain posters....

 

[James]

If the people that are struggling are the average and the people that are succeeding are outliers, your comparison is pointless. We all know that both types exist, so much that it shouldn't need to be said. The frequency of each type is the important bit.

Please provide statistics on current, single earner families able to earn equity in a 2/3 br home on nothing more than a highschool education. If you cannot, your argument is void.

Both of your arguments are addressing issues downstream from an individuals decision making as they develop. That you are focusing on specific situations later in life is the problem. I do not believe that society needs to support more "entitlements" to succeed. We need individuals to contribute and make success a reality. The position of Tyler's arguments lead to societal issues more than they help. I don't disagree with the access to education. I disagree with the absolving of personal responsibility.

 

[Eldritch]

Please provide statistics on current, single earner families able to earn equity in a 2/3 br home on nothing more than a highschool education. If you cannot, your argument is void.

This happens sometimes.

 

[James]

That's a lot of words that don't support your argument.

You think that's a lot of words?

And it does. You are just trying to frame the conversation. I call bullshit. You never directly answered my first post.

 

[TylerW]

It still is.

Please provide statistics on current, single earner families able to earn equity in a 2/3 br home on nothing more than a highschool education. If you cannot, your argument is void.

Both of your arguments are addressing issues downstream from an individuals decision making as they develop. That you are focusing on specific situations later in life is the problem. I do not believe that society needs to support more "entitlements" to succeed. We need individuals to contribute and make success a reality. The position of Tyler's arguments lead to societal issues more than they help. I don't disagree with the access to education. I disagree with the absolving of personal responsibility.

Again, I'm not really hearing defense of your original stance. You're not answering any questions either.

This happens sometimes.

Do you want to bet the future of this country on "sometimes" ?

 

[Eldritch]

Do you want to bet the future of this country on "sometimes" ?

No, but I bet the future of this country on nothing. This nation is determined to self destruct. The only hope we have of turning back into a politically moderate nationally interested people is a war with China, which may be a global kill switch for our species.

I have a list of drastic reforms a mile long that would turn us around as a nation within a decade, but who cares, if our people have neither the will nor the interest in implementing such things?

 

[TylerW]

No, but I bet the future of this country on nothing. This nation is determined to self destruct. The only hope we have of turning back into a politically moderate nationally interested people is a war with China, which may be a global kill switch for our species.

I have a list of drastic reforms a mile long that would turn us around as a nation within a decade, but who cares, if our people have neither the will nor the interest in implementing such things?

It's true that I may be playing a penny ante game.

Still feels like a better game than "Lets auger this into the ground"

 

[stangmx13]

Both of your arguments are addressing issues downstream from an individuals decision making as they develop. That you are focusing on specific situations later in life is the problem. I do not believe that society needs to support more "entitlements" to succeed. We need individuals to contribute and make success a reality. The position of Tyler's arguments lead to societal issues more than they help. I don't disagree with the access to education. I disagree with the absolving of personal responsibility.

Ahh, the old "people wouldn't be poor if they just tried harder" argument. It's a stupid argument when discussing large populations. What kind of person thinks that many many people less fortunate than them didn't try as hard as they could? Hell, there's likely a large portion of the population that tried significantly harder than you and ended up with less.

I tend to lump social responsibility in with personal responsibility. After-all, its my personal responsibility to not be a dick to people in general. So you know who I wish had more personal responsibility... the people that have and continue to contribute to massive income inequality. The people that use their massive resources to funnel wealth upwards. But ya, let's blame the poor for not trying hard enough.

I agree that society doesn't need more entitlements to succeed... if and only if people can't amass crazy wealth. For every policy that makes it easier to amass wealth, there needs to exist one to help the have-nots. Otherwise you end up with an imbalance... you know, like we have now.

 

[James]

Ahh, the old "people wouldn't be poor if they just tried harder" argument.

Your post is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. Don't quote me if you do not understand my position and are trying to use me as a platform for your opinion.

Share your opinion as an original and put it out there.

*Just to be clear, your response didn't capture your understanding of my intent. That is understandable if my posts weren't fully expressive. But, don't try to use me.

 

[TylerW]

You haven't provided any explanation of your position, so don't be upset if people misunderstand it.

 

[James]

You haven't provided any explanation of your position, so don't be upset if people misunderstand it.

I have! Not to great detail.

Tyler, do you think that Robert's post captured my position, so far?

 

[TylerW]

I have! Not to great detail.

Tyler, do you think that Robert's post captured my position, so far?

I don't know what your position is, I am unable to align anyone's opinion to it.

You seem to have a fantastical idea that a high school education is all you need to raise a family on a single income and purchase a home, and you have yet to describe or defend this position, so I have yet to understand it.

 

[ScarySpikes]

Both of your arguments are addressing issues downstream from an individuals decision making as they develop. That you are focusing on specific situations later in life is the problem. I do not believe that society needs to support more "entitlements" to succeed. We need individuals to contribute and make success a reality. The position of Tyler's arguments lead to societal issues more than they help. I don't disagree with the access to education. I disagree with the absolving of personal responsibility.

Pull away from focusing on individuals a little bit and think about societal effects. You seem to think that people contribute to society and improve it. This is absolutely true. Not only is it true but the contribution is measurable in a lot of different ways, income taxes paid, contribution to GDP, however you want to look at it. People that are better educated, and also educated to do work that they actually enjoy, tend to contribute more, on average, and that change is mostly measurable. The effects of this is pretty dramatic, and not just about income. People with college degrees depend far less on other safety net benefits over their lifetime, they have a dramatically lower incarceration rate. They tend to be healthier, live longer, retire later and with much better financial security, pay much more in income taxes, the list goes on and on, but basically it comes down to it being massively beneficial to society as well as to individuals for everyone to attain as much education as they want to and are capable of.

We can also see similar societal benefits for people not being saddled with large student loan debts, on that front it's more down to the ability to move forward in life with things like marriage, home purchases, etc.

It makes sense for us to maximize that benefits as much as possible. As such, we ought to do our best to make sure that everyone is able to get as much education as they want and are capable of. That means removing the financial barriers that get in people's way, Loan forgiveness, tuition free public college, and I could easily see a good argument for providing stipends to students, particularly for students whose families can't easily support them financially. We can teach, and demand, personal responsibility, but that doesn't, and probably shouldn't come in the form of a massive financial burden.

 

[budman]

Of course it does. Opportunities does not mean college as the definition of the successful path. There are a bunch of trades that provide a solid path and for those that excel and an opportunity for some to start their own business. I know plenty of people that have done so.

Electrical school. Sheet metal HVAC. Low voltage for AV/ security applications. Bottom line is training. Learn a trade. Get a degree, be great and succeed.

Opportunities are out there for those that apply themselves. Making sure that society pays for you to apply yourself is not.

Make smart choices and make shit happen.

Sure wish the best for everyone chasing success.

Asking me to pay for it? Not exactly loving that.

But... I get where others do.

 

[nakedape]

Your post is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. Don't quote me if you do not understand my position and are trying to use me as a platform for your opinion.

You may notice a few here don't give a fuck about your "concerns" which read as deflections, misstatements, evasions, and uniformed confirmation bias. In no particular order, though you seem like an otherwise sensible poster/

To be super clear: the metrics perpetuating poverty, the markers, and the outcomes are ALL highly independent of effort/bootstraps/intent.

It's a persistent and unhelpful myth that seriously disadvantaged, or even partially disadvantaged, and under-resourced folks can "rise above" their circumstances.

Prof. M. Sandel literally wrote a whole book and designed a free course via Harvard decrying what he labels the "rhetoric of rising" and its false promises. It's so absolutely pernicious in its implications and applications across the society he tags it as the precursor to the uncivil warring we are both practicing on barf and the larger culture.

A lot of people here pontificate with very little attention or awareness of what the actually smart people in the world are trying to teach us. Yuval Harari? Very little mention, despite being enjoined by multiple govts across the Western world.

We all need to revisit Neal Postman's Amused to Death periodically, but some more than others. You all ha hah ha your way to the apocalypse sipping IPAs and buying brand-new $30-40K motos, but know the narrative is going to be challenged by people not drunk on the capitalist kool-aid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY

 

[mikev]

for real.

"just work hard" is not a solution no matter how you wrap it.