Tea Party?

[afm199]

The polarization I was speaking to is more my perception that the Tea Party folks seem driven more by anger than solutions. That anger almost always digests into blame...which is yet another excuse to avoid dealing with the real issues.

I don't believe this is any government policy, but simply a reflection of our society. That isn't to say that political groups or other special interests aren't able to exploit it to their benefit, but that's always been the case.

The thing that really digs me is how people play into this loser's game, and how emotionally driven it is. Tea Party folks might consider the timing of their collective action. We've been running up the debt for decades, but it isn't until Obama's tenure that they decide to organize? Not implying it's a race issue, but it's too convenient on many other counts.

Every special interest group is, by definition, interested in their group. The Tea Party is a handy target, but it's really reverse discrimination. Their views are their bailiwick, their beliefs, and their right. Just as yours are yours. To set them aside and target them as a specially bad or ignorant or corrupt group is just short sighted. Their views are JUST as valuable as those of the far left wing of the Democratic party, the rellgious right wing of the Republican, or any other. It's far to easy to dismiss a view and very very difficult to look at, analyze it, and understand it from the viewpoint of the believer.

There may come a day when Americans actually try to UNDERSTAND the views of others, but that day is impossibly far in the future.

 

[mlm]

Every special interest group is, by definition, interested in their group. The Tea Party is a handy target, but it's really reverse discrimination. Their views are their bailiwick, their beliefs, and their right. Just as yours are yours. To set them aside and target them as a specially bad or ignorant or corrupt group is just short sighted. Their views are JUST as valuable as those of the far left wing of the Democratic party, the relgious right wing of the Republican, or any other. It's far to easy to dismiss a view and very very difficult to look at, analyze it, and understand it from the viewpoint of the believer.

There may come a day when Americans actually try to UNDERSTAND the views of others, but that day is impossibly far in the future.

Sorry, I thought this was a discussion about the Tea Party.

I agree with a lot of what the TPs are frustrated with, I just don't see it as an effective means of change. That was how I interpetted the subject of this thread. If you want to sit around and bitch and whine about something and suggest that is a solution then I think you're full of shit.

 

[Sharky]

The polarization I was speaking to is more my perception that the Tea Party folks seem driven more by anger than solutions. That anger almost always digests into blame...which is yet another excuse to avoid dealing with the real issues.

I don't believe this is any government policy, but simply a reflection of our society. That isn't to say that political groups or other special interests aren't able to exploit it to their benefit, but that's always been the case.

The thing that really digs me is how people play into this loser's game, and how emotionally driven it is. Tea Party folks might consider the timing of their collective action. We've been running up the debt for decades, but it isn't until Obama's tenure that they decide to organize? Not implying it's a race issue, but it's too convenient on many other counts.

I think for the most part, conservative folk just got fed up with Bush's reckless policies (war spending etc) and see that Obama's policies are even worse and they have had enough. Growing up and getting through college I've been pretty "right-minded". I could not support Bush Jr. and can't support captain Barry-O. Hell, in college I voted for freaking Perot (epic fail on a different level).

 

[afm199]

Sorry, I thought this was a discussion about the Tea Party.

I agree with a lot of what the TPs are frustrated with, I just don't see it as an effective means of change. That was how I interpetted the subject of this thread. If you want to sit around and bitch and whine about something and suggest that is a solution then I think you're full of shit.

Really? The Tea Party forced Congress and the President to CUT SPENDING and saw it through. That's called CHANGE. Instead of borrowing more, extending debt limits, and talking about future change. It is the first positive note I've seen in American politics in a while. It's what extremist ideas do, and it is a valuable service. So far you seem to be the one bitching and whining . Get used to them. They are not going to disappear.

O, yeah, it's a race issue because of the President being black? Please. Spending is completely out of control in congress and the Tea Party actually managed to force people to focus on that and do something. Why does that bother you?

 

[mlm]

Really? The Tea Party forced Congress and the President to CUT SPENDING and saw it through. That's called CHANGE. Instead of borrowing more, extending debt limits, and talking about future change. It is the first positive note I've seen in American politics in a while. It's what extremist ideas do, and it is a valuable service. So far you seem to be the one bitching and whining . Get used to them. They are not going to disappear.

O, yeah, it's a race issue because of the President being black? Please. Spending is completely out of control in congress and the Tea Party actually managed to force people to focus on that and do something. Why does that bother you?

What the F you talking about? They played high drama for a few weeks and then punted the issue. The disagreement was on taxes as it has been dating back to Bush. If you want to credit Sarah Palin and company then go ahead...I'm not ready yet.

And I said I didn't see it as a race issue....just convenient that all the Bush angst was nicely held back until Obama took over. Yes, Dems do the same blamestorming, but at least recognize it for the partisan bullshit that it is.

 

[jdhu]

Really? The Tea Party forced Congress and the President to CUT SPENDING and saw it through. That's called CHANGE. Instead of borrowing more, extending debt limits, and talking about future change. It is the first positive note I've seen in American politics in a while. It's what extremist ideas do, and it is a valuable service. So far you seem to be the one bitching and whining . Get used to them. They are not going to disappear.

O, yeah, it's a race issue because of the President being black? Please. Spending is completely out of control in congress and the Tea Party actually managed to force people to focus on that and do something. Why does that bother you?

Completely agree. Even those that dislike what the Tea Party stands for should at least be willing to acknowledge the "change" their movement brought. It really is democracy at work, like it or not.

 

[Lovedoc]

I'm glad the Tea Party opened the debate, but ultimately they are a dead end. They envision an America where the starvation threatens the slothful, migration from third world countries is ended and they will smugly continue to enjoy the lifestyle they feel they are entitled too. They will reduce education budgets to home school their kids. They truly expect Medicare and Social to be there for them as is. They do not have a realistic vision and ARE largely a white conservative Christian movement.

 

[jdhu]

What the F you talking about? They played high drama for a few weeks and then punted the issue. The disagreement was on taxes as it has been dating back to Bush. If you want to credit Sarah Palin and company then go ahead...I'm not ready yet.

And I said I didn't see it as a race issue....just convenient that all the Bush angst was nicely held back until Obama took over. Yes, Dems do the same blamestorming, but at least recognize it for the partisan bullshit that it is.

What the F are YOU talking about? The Tea Party and their representatives did exactly what they said they were going to do (got elected and forced change). What issue did they "punt" exactly?

 

[jdhu]

I'm glad the Tea Party opened the debate, but ultimately they are a dead end. They envision an America where the starvation threatens the slothful, migration from third world countries is ended and they will smugly continue to enjoy the lifestyle they feel they are entitled too. They will reduce education budgets to home school their kids. They truly expect Medicare and Social to be there for them as is. They do not have a realistic vision and ARE largely a white conservative Christian movement.

Even if true (I think your view is extreme), they are no different than environmentally-focused liberals, union-defenders, etc etc etc. Groups have their issues that they focus on.

If we are going to call them 100% anti-immigration (really?), in favor of starvation, etc etc, then we might as well call all Democrats tree-hugging retards who favor redistribution above all else, etc etc (not too useful, is it?).

 

[mlm]

What the F are YOU talking about? The Tea Party and their representatives did exactly what they said they were going to do (got elected and forced change). What issue did they "punt" exactly?

Which TP candidate campaigned on raising the debt limit? That's what they did. And I think many stated they wanted to drive a default, so they didn't get exactly what they wanted.

Also, they "punted" any specifics for how these cuts will be implemented down the road.

Hey, I want to get the defecit and debt taken care of, but it isn't going to happen on cuts alone. Personally I've never found the asshole who universally says no to everything in a meeting very helpful. They usually go away...as will the TP. Meanwhile, all they've done is to set up for a longer fight.

And again...just because I call BS on the TP doesn't mean I support what the Dems or Pubs are doing. My read is that Obama is weak and the moderate section of the Pubs that I'd support are being obstructed by the TP.

 

[afm199]

What the F you talking about? They played high drama for a few weeks and then punted the issue. The disagreement was on taxes as it has been dating back to Bush. If you want to credit Sarah Palin and company then go ahead...I'm not ready yet.

And I said I didn't see it as a race issue....just convenient that all the Bush angst was nicely held back until Obama took over. Yes, Dems do the same blamestorming, but at least recognize it for the partisan bullshit that it is.

No, Obama wanted to punt the issue forward and the Tea Party managed to get some cuts, not as much as they should have. But rave on. Everyone needs villians. And it is even easier when you can make them out to be racist.

 

[Arminius]

Just out of curiosity, what do think about specific targeted minority entitlements to numerous small groups and their effect on polarization? This country is being manipulated into myriad small group affiliations, each group looking out for their piece of the pie at the expense of the others. Which is a huge problem.

You mean programs like this:

NEW YORK (AP) — New York City will spend $127 million in public and private funds on programs designed to help young black and Latino men.
Billionaire Mayor Michael Bloomberg will kick in $30 million from his foundation and hedge fund manager George Soros will match that amount, according to the mayor's office. The remaining $67.5 million will be paid by the city.
The Young Men's Initiative was first reported by The New York Times on Wednesday. The mayor's office called it the nation's "boldest and most comprehensive effort to tackle the broad disparities slowing the advancement of black and Latino young men" in a statement.
It will include job placement, fatherhood classes and training for probation officers and school staff on how to help the young men get ahead. More than a dozen city agencies will be involved.
The program will target about 315,000 black and Latino men between the ages of 16 and 24.
... see http://news.yahoo.com/nyc-spend-127m-minority-programs-men-071210489.html for full article

 

[jdhu]

Which TP candidate campaigned on raising the debt limit? That's what they did. And I think many stated they wanted to drive a default, so they didn't get exactly what they wanted.

Also, they "punted" any specifics for how these cuts will be implemented down the road.

Hey, I want to get the defecit and debt taken care of, but it isn't going to happen on cuts alone. Personally I've never found the asshole who universally says no to everything in a meeting very helpful. They usually go away...as will the TP. Meanwhile, all they've done is to set up for a longer fight.

And again...just because I call BS on the TP doesn't mean I support what the Dems or Pubs are doing. My read is that Obama is weak and the moderate section of the Pubs that I'd support are being obstructed by the TP.

Ok, we might agree more than it initially seemed. I also think the Tea Party was unreasonably inflexible, but give them credit for sticking to their guns and doing what they wanted to do through the system. A "good" agreement would have mixed cuts with revenue increases (at least defense cuts were part of this agreement).

You seem to ridicule those TPers that voted for the debt agreement, but then call out the other TPers for sticking to their guns. Like cake and eating it too?

 

[afm199]

Completely agree. Even those that dislike what the Tea Party stands for should at least be willing to acknowledge the "change" their movement brought. It really is democracy at work, like it or not.

Precisely. Democracy is really ugly. You have to let people you don't like have a say.

 

[afm199]

Which TP candidate campaigned on raising the debt limit? That's what they did. And I think many stated they wanted to drive a default, so they didn't get exactly what they wanted.

Also, they "punted" any specifics for how these cuts will be implemented down the road.

Hey, I want to get the defecit and debt taken care of, but it isn't going to happen on cuts alone. Personally I've never found the asshole who universally says no to everything in a meeting very helpful. They usually go away...as will the TP. Meanwhile, all they've done is to set up for a longer fight.

And again...just because I call BS on the TP doesn't mean I support what the Dems or Pubs are doing. My read is that Obama is weak and the moderate section of the Pubs that I'd support are being obstructed by the TP.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That's the clarion call of polarized politics and why you should try seeing the Tea Party as an agent for change and get over your racist fears.

 

[mlm]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That's the clarion call of polarized politics and why you should try seeing the Tea Party as an agent for change and get over your racist fears.

Racist fears?

 

[Wormwood]

In the good ol days the Tea Party would be a catalyst for change and therefore good for politics.

It is an apathetic and lazy America that allows it to be a one sided push thus far.

 

[Traq]

Spend five more seconds and you'll find that nobody who was present at the meeting will confirm that Biden said this. Biden claims he did not. The common denominator in all the news links that say he did is Sarah Palin.

I wasn't inclined to do all the work for him.

But in my 5 seconds I saw no denials that other Dems at the meeting didn't say it explicitly. And given the fact that Biden has no control over his mouth...well, it's not exactly unbelievable he'd jump in on that. Besides, if he was there and people were spewing out shit like that he should have shut them down like a responsible leader. So, in my opinion, blame lies with him regardless of whether he said anything to agree or not since he allowed such statements to be made without challenge.

 

[afm199]

Racist fears?

The thing that really digs me is how people play into this loser's game, and how emotionally driven it is. Tea Party folks might consider the timing of their collective action. We've been running up the debt for decades, but it isn't until Obama's tenure that they decide to organize? Not implying it's a race issue, but it's too convenient on many other counts.

There you go. Nice backhanded job too. I'm not saying but I am saying. ( I was going to say racial fears in the first post, but the way you phrased them, it was racist. )

BTW, when you start calling names and telling people they are full of shit, your credibility suddenly takes a nose dive. It's hard to take someone seriously when they insult you. I don't particularly mind you calling me full of shit, but it my once rather good opinion of you and your thoughts suddenly lessened.

 

[mlm]

Ok, we might agree more than it initially seemed. I also think the Tea Party was unreasonably inflexible, but give them credit for sticking to their guns and doing what they wanted to do through the system. A "good" agreement would have mixed cuts with revenue increases (at least defense cuts were part of this agreement).

You seem to ridicule those TPers that voted for the debt agreement, but then call out the other TPers for sticking to their guns. Like cake and eating it too?

No, I was responding to your claim that the TPers got exactly what they wanted.

I'll give them credit for stirring shit up, but stirring shit up isn't always constructive. Debt limit got raised as everyone knew it would be, with a very sketchy and most likely non-binding agreement that people would agree on the details later.

You might as well call this the wasted congress as pretty much NOTHING is going to happen until 2012. It's just posturing for the next election cycle, and from the Republican position, the TPers are more likely than not going to lose them thier slim majority.