The Electric Motorcycle Thread

[HadesOmega]

Oh yeah I posted this in the videos section but I thought it should be post here also. If you ever wanted to see the guts of an Empulse TT here it is.

[YOUTUBE]stzhQ59H2S4[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Starpower]

Bummer, got notified that my Kuberg Ranger is Covid pushed into Q1 due to part delays.

 

[sk8norcal]

Oh yeah I posted this in the videos section but I thought it should be post here also. If you ever wanted to see the guts of an Empulse TT here it is.

do u like having the transmission or do u feel it's useless?

 

[Killroy1999]

do u like having the transmission or do u feel it's useless?

Useless - My thoughts about a transmission on a modern EV motorcycle.

The transmission and the clutch has always been a crutch for the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) because the ICE as a limited range of RPM that it makes and practical torque and the ICE needs to idle.

Of course we can always use a transmission to multiply torque on a EV, but at the expense of efficient, cost, weight, space, ect.

Production EV passenger cars are beating supercars in acceleration to 60 MPH, so even for pure performance, the transmission looks like it will go away with EVs. I'm sure there will some special technical cases, but I'm sure these can be solved by proper system engineering of the Battery, Motor, Controller and cooling system.

Probably most importantly is the work load on the rider. After talking to talented track riders at the track that were basically still learning how to shift, I bet that most riders would ride faster and safer if they did not have to shift and clutch.

Tradition is a real thing, but if you really feel strongly about tradition then you are riding a ICE.

 

[R3DS!X]

I think transmissions still make sense for EV's. Just less gears needed.
A low speed a high speed gearing would be good. Like imagine if your empulse just had 2nd and 6th. I think if someone makes small lightweight gearbox of some sort that is robust enough for the torque of the EV motors that will be dope.

I think some of the the Formula E cars do a 2 gear system.



The storm bee is looking decent so far. will be interesting to get some realworld data for charging time and how long it lasts on a charge.

 

[Killroy1999]

I think transmissions still make sense for EV's. Just less gears needed.
A low speed a high speed gearing would be good. Like imagine if your empulse just had 2nd and 6th. I think if someone makes small lightweight gearbox of some sort that is robust enough for the torque of the EV motors that will be dope.

I think some of the the Formula E cars do a 2 gear system.



The storm bee is looking decent so far. will be interesting to get some realworld data for charging time and how long it lasts on a charge.

Perhaps your right. I would like to read about Formula E more. At a glance, it looks like race rules dictated multi-gear at one point. It looks like a 1-speed was used by one manufacture one season. This is a racing specific application.

I remember with the original Tesla Roadster they had a 2-speed gear box to meet the 0-60 mph acceleration and the top speed. Yet, in development the supplier that made the gearbox could not deliver a gear box that did not grenade, so Tesla redesigned the system for single speed and still meet the acceleration and the top speed.

Teslas has been 1 speed ever sense. Yet, they have shifted to 'dual motor' which does improve efficiency in a more simple way than a transmission.

 

[mrzuzzo]

I'm not a fan of trannys. Seems like it adds quite a bit of complexity without much benefit. What's wrong with Zero's direct-drive setup?

Truth be told I've only ever ridden one moto EV - R3DS!X's old Zero for like half a mile and that thing was a blast without any gears.

 

[HadesOmega]

do u like having the transmission or do u feel it's useless?

I like it, I have both a 1 speed and a 6 speed and it kinda bridges the gap between your traditional EV bike and a ICE bike. I've probably ridden more electric bikes here than anyone here and I still like shifting. You have choices, you don't even need to shift if you don't want to just keep it in 3rd or 4th and it'll still move. I use the Empulse for doordash sometimes and electric bikes are great for delivery because you don't have to work the clutch, at least as much. Sitting at lights on an ICE bike sucks. The only time I use the clutch is to downshift. If there were a quick up and downshift you won't even need a clutch at all. Also like Kymco is talking about is shifting is what you would normally do on a motorcycle. The Empulse feels more like a normal motorcycle. Of course you ride it a little different, its smooth all the time no matter what RPM your at whereas on a gas bike you feel like your breaking the motor if your revving the balls off of it, the Empulse feels fine zippin along at the higher rev ranges. In fact I wish it has a shift light because you don't feel a pick up, it just a constant pull, you have to rely on the tachometer to tell you went to shift. So I hope my tachometer doesn't stop functioning =p

Yes it does make it more complex. If anything it's easier to ride around a track because you know what gear to be in when gong around certain corners. Gears make your motor more efficient also or more versatile. You want more power off the line keep it in 1st gear. Want top speed shift it into 5th or 6th. That being said I feel a 5th or 6th gear seems a bit too much on an electric motorcycle. I very rarely use the 5th or 6th gear unless I'm trying to pin it to win it.

There two ways to go about power on an electric bike. Have this big honkin motor and gear it so it can run up to a specific speed. Or you can have a smaller motor and have gears so you have a wider range of torque and top speeds like I mentioned earlier. You look at the motor on the Zero bikes they're freakin ginormous, the Empulse motor assembly is probably slightly smaller than those motors and the bike is just as fast. If you just compare the motors the Empulse motor is much smaller.

A single speed bike you have to be more precise with the throttle also.

Also you were mentioning there being a gearbox that is strong enough to handle electric power well Brammo did it Craig Bramscher and Jay Leno talk about that in this video
[youtube]1nN1q2ihw2Y[/youtube]

 

[sk8norcal]

i remember this video, almost 10 years ago.

[YOUTUBE]W9VaVS5Jqrg[/YOUTUBE]


and how about the idea of an non-mechanical eletronic clutch lever. Would seem useful for offroad situation. Bret Tkacs was recently talking about the potential whiskey throttle drawback of the DCT for AT.

 

[dittoalex]

I find that unloading the left peg to shift upsets the chassis, not to speak of the actual shifting. Not shifting minimizes fatigue over a long session of twisties. It's why I originally bought my Zero and then, once confirmed, bought the Aprilia Mana with the CVT for the same reasons.

 

[R3DS!X]

i remember this video, almost 10 years ago.

[YOUTUBE]W9VaVS5Jqrg[/YOUTUBE]


and how about the idea of an non-mechanical eletronic clutch lever. Would seem useful for offroad situation. Bret Tkacs was recently talking about the potential whiskey throttle drawback of the DCT for AT.

I kept wanting this to come out. We need more supermoto ev's.

The Zero FXS ain't the worst but the budget components kinda hold it back.

The Alta was a lot closer but you know what happened to them.

I wish Zero would make a FXS that had lighter better wheels(spokes), bigger better brakes, a charging system that can be detached from the bike (making it lighter for racing and what not) and can accept level 3/2 charging.

For those wondering about why i think electric motos would benefit from a 2 gear system, this is this article that goes over the transmission in the taycan and it's benefits. https://www.wired.com/story/electric-car-two-speed-transmission-gearbox/

This of it more like a city/tight twisty gear and a highway/high speed gear. Both having plenty of overlap.

 

[Killroy1999]

Its great to talk about transmissions, but if Electric Motorcycle makers are looking to spend there money, they should spend it on fast charging (DC and AC), battery capacity and active cooling.

The Zero SR is really zippy, but if you are on the race track or driving at high speeds for a extended period of time, it will power back because of its air cooled everything. Cooling is also a issue for charging - can't be too hot or too cold.

 

[HadesOmega]

i remember this video, almost 10 years ago.

[YOUTUBE]W9VaVS5Jqrg[/YOUTUBE]


and how about the idea of an non-mechanical eletronic clutch lever. Would seem useful for offroad situation. Bret Tkacs was recently talking about the potential whiskey throttle drawback of the DCT for AT.

Yeah it's a bummer the engage didn't make it to production, I think I would enjoy the supermoto more.

The Light Bee has so much torque I don't feel I need a clutch off road. I suppose if you were stopped and trying to get up a hill it might help and wheelies I guess. To get the front to come up on the Light Bee you literally can just pull up on the handlebar and open up the throttle. But yes there is that danger of whiskey throttling it especially with the new Sur Ron full electronic throttle.

 

[HadesOmega]

Its great to talk about transmissions, but if Electric Motorcycle makers are looking to spend there money, they should spend it on fast charging (DC and AC), battery capacity and active cooling.

The Zero SR is really zippy, but if you are on the race track or driving at high speeds for a extended period of time, it will power back because of its air cooled everything. Cooling is also a issue for charging - can't be too hot or too cold.

Yeah I've never ridden a Zero on a track before but I heard from the dudes riding them, after about a lap or 2 you are already getting thermal cutback. The Empulse watercooled motor is awesome the only thing holding it back is the battery temps. Once the battery is heatsoaked it's hard to get it to cool down especially if you are charging after a track session. You lose regen, power, and rev limit. The best way to go I guess is have swappable battery pack or find someway to force cool the battery.

 

[Killroy1999]

I'm not sure if there is new development the MotoE race bike has been a race version of the Energica Ego Corsa - single speed

~21kWh battery - I would take one

 

[mrzuzzo]

The regular Energicas have the same battery. They are way ahead in terms of the battery and charging compared to Zero and HD.

 

[HadesOmega]

Wow exciting I have to say it's a nice looking little scooter, there's your 2 speed electro bike

[Youtube]qG3SFuZEjF4[/youtube]


The frame design is interesting it uses the battery as a stressmember like a lot of modern bikes use the engine as a stressmember. That looks like it would fun to rip around the kart track with. The swingarm looks interesting also. It's a single sided swingarm that pivots where the motor is. Looks like a belt drive also and it looks like the transmission is on the axle. Interesting design.

 

[sk8norcal]

 

[dittoalex]

Does the Kymco F9 have the same handling dynamics of foot pegs? Nice engineering.

 

[MikeL]

The regular Energicas have the same battery. They are way ahead in terms of the battery and charging compared to Zero and HD.

Are they way ahead of HD?

For size, yes, they are larger. For charging they don't really have an advantage except level 2, but at 3kWH that ain't much.

HD I would argue (from most reports) has far better cooling and airflow design for their battery. Although this isn't issue for the majority of consumers. Most are not pushing multiple DC Fast charges a day nor are they racing them daily.

Whatever Zero's reason is for not having DC (technical or otherwise) it has put them on the backburner for most I believe. When you pay ~23k for a top tier electric bike and it doesn't come with DC fast charging?