Wine Country Ablaze

[Climber]

I think PG&E has been held liable and then it's up to them to go after whomever. I don't know about the details of their cases, but they certainly didn't invent the game of fingerpointing in the courtroom.

Just think up some parallels where you sell a product which uses other products and then for that third party company to have an issue which negatively affects your product. Something you've used a hundred times and had no reason to think anything would change, then one day it does. Totally outside of your control. You feel morally responsible? If you did, it'd be artificially self imposed, imo. You can feel bad because it sucks, but I'm generally unable to feel responsible for things other people do that are outside of my control.

The rate payers have no say in who PG&E chooses as subcontractors, so it's 100% PG&E's responsibility to assure that the subcontractors are doing their job properly.

Also, PG&E has a long, long history of short-changing maintenance and pocketing the money paid to them by rate payers to do that maintenance.

I don't understand why you're bending over backwards so far to defend them. Do you have any kind of personal or family stake in the business?

 

[byke]

Are you comparing non-sanctioned use of a product to the negligence of subcontractors performing sanctioned and sponsor-endorsed work? If so I don't get the connection.

Non-sanctioned? Not sure what gave that impression, but no. I'm not sure what's tough or weird about this, just think up any of the billion possible hypothetiicals where a vendor causes your product problems.

The rate payers have no say in who PG&E chooses as subcontractors, so it's 100% PG&E's responsibility to assure that the subcontractors are doing their job properly.

Just like any business, the consumer gets no say as to who manufactured the o-rings in widget X.

Also, PG&E has a long, long history of short-changing maintenance and pocketing the money paid to them by rate payers to do that maintenance.

I don't understand why you're bending over backwards so far to defend them. Do you have any kind of personal or family stake in the business?

I'm not defending them, I hate PG&E. I'm only pointing out that there are plenty of circumstances where an error in the part/service you use in your product can cause problems that screw you over and while you may legally responsible, you can be morally clear and a 'victim' as well. You guys ever work in manufacturing? I guess you have feel it firsthand where you get screwed over from someone else's mistake and have it negatively reflect on yourself. It sucks to be legally responsible, when it's not your fault.

 

[Climber]

I'm not defending them, I hate PG&E. I'm only pointing out that there are plenty of circumstances where an error in the part/service you use in your product can cause problems that screw you over and while you may legally responsible, you can be morally clear and a 'victim' as well. You guys ever work in manufacturing? I guess you have feel it firsthand where you get screwed over from someone else's mistake and have it negatively reflect on yourself. It sucks to be legally responsible, when it's not your fault.

If it was an isolated or even a once in awhile thing, I would agree with you.

But, PG&E has systematically cut corners for greater bonuses on numerous occasions, and pocketing money specifically charged to rate payers for safety maintenance.

 

[boney]

Which is why their negligence will continue until there are criminal charges brought against their Execs.

Nothing else has any teeth whatsoever and it has been proven over and over again that fines will absolutely not curb bad behavior.

Insanity/stupidity is repeating the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

There will never be criminal charges brought against their execs. Not only will the finger pointing be so thorough that no jury could ever convict someone, but a Corporation is just that. It's a legal being that can't be put in jail. We will pay. It will happen again. If you think this is bad, wait for the next financial melt down. It will be the same story over and over again.

 

[boney]

Just to add fuel to the fire: (too soon?)

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-utility-wildfires-20171017-story.html

Electrical utilities fires burn more area than other sources but are not the #1 cause.

 

[Ridley]

Correct.
All of the back and forth here has been interesting. What I would like to know are the specifics of PG&E's responsibilities with respect to line maintenance and brush clearing, and whether or not those responsibilities were met. If they were met, then perhaps we should look more closely at the responsibilities themselves. if not, then PG&E is culpable.

If you're interested in PG&E's responsibilities you can find it here, You'll have to search through a fair bit of info but I think the relevant part is Rule 35, and Table 1. But its like any other Gov doc, there are other important things referenced and scattered about.

http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Published/G000/M146/K646/146646565.pdf

 

[i_am_the_koi]

Pg&E is the secret army out there. Rebuilding, cutting and clearing, running wires and getting people power.

No one ever talks about the hundreds of workers who show up and are on call during disasters.

But yes, they're negligent.

 

[Brokenlink]

I hate PG&E too. But it isn't that simple. I have had to work with PG&E on tree cutting and removal on watershed lands. Trust me, their attitude is, if it's near a wire cut the whole fucking tree down. They will do everything they can to clear cut under their lines. They even told us they were exempt from CEQA (they aren't).

But many land managers (water districts, parks, etc) have competing issues and mandates. They don't want trees removed from parks. Oaks should be preserved. Heritage trees cannot be cut down. etc.

It's not as simple as PG&E sucks, they should be fined for negligence. I am sure they should be, but it isn't that simple.

 

[RightCoastBias]

Pg&E is the secret army out there. Rebuilding, cutting and clearing, running wires and getting people power.

No one ever talks about the hundreds of workers who show up and are on call during disasters.

But yes, they're negligent.

Well, they can't charge you for services you're not getting. So it's in their business interest to get everyone power again. They're doing good work, but I don't think it's benevolence.

 

[ThumperX]

Perhaps a new "What does PG&E Owe you thread?" For some idiot reason I was coming to this thread to see if my North Bay Peeps are still hanging in there. These fires aren't out yet maybe hold off on the blame game for a few more days

Hey Jeff, Daniel, Frank, Tom, Koi, Mark, ....how are you guys holding up?

 

[1962siia]

Pg&E is the secret army out there. Rebuilding, cutting and clearing, running wires and getting people power.

No one ever talks about the hundreds of workers who show up and are on call during disasters.

But yes, they're negligent.

They have a pretty major staging area west of Rohnert Park on Wilfred. They’ve closed the road to regular traffic but early last week we drove through as they were ramping up. Kinda reminded me of burning man with huge tents, tons of porta potties, hundreds of trucks etc. Its a very impressive effort.

We walked through my moms street yesterday morning and pge hadn't made it there yet. Poles down wires on the ground etc. They were close but probably a low priority since no one lives there anymore.

 

[avu3]

The arm of workers on the ground making it happen are awesome. We should appreciate their efforts - they're not the ones running the business making potentially questionable decisions about maintenance.

The point about them hustling to do it because they cannot charge is valid.

Another consideration would be - hustling to do it now means not having to worry about permits or environmental impact. Nobody is asking. Nobody is watching. What can quickly be done today might be mired in red tape if you wait till the dust settles.

 

[rsrider]

Perhaps a new "What does PG&E Owe you thread?" For some idiot reason I was coming to this thread to see if my North Bay Peeps are still hanging in there. These fires aren't out yet maybe hold off on the blame game for a few more days

Hey Jeff, Daniel, Frank, Tom, Koi, Mark, ....how are you guys holding up?

The moral arbiter steps in....how does one go about getting that job? Yes, we're all bad for wondering who started the fires.... oh shame, shame on us all.

 

[Brokenlink]

The moral arbiter steps in....how does one go about getting that job? Yes, we're all bad for wondering who started the fires.... oh shame, shame on us all.

 

[Abacinator]

The moral arbiter steps in....how does one go about getting that job? Yes, we're all bad for wondering who started the fires.... oh shame, shame on us all.

I'm with ThumperX. I keep checking back here to see how people are doing, and the status of evacuees and fire containment. All I'm seeing now is people yammering about PG&E's culpability. A separate thread makes sense.

 

[rebekahlynn]

I'm with ThumperX. I keep checking back here to see how people are doing, and the status of evacuees and fire containment. All I'm seeing now is people yammering about PG&E's culpability. A separate thread makes sense.

+1

 

[ThumperX]

The moral arbiter steps in....how does one go about getting that job? Yes, we're all bad for wondering who started the fires.... oh shame, shame on us all.

It's self appointed and a selfish, albeit polite, request.

 

[i_am_the_koi]

+1 on separate thread.

Another bad day smoke wise.

Fire is due West of white Hall lane. It's still up in the hills and a lot of effort being put to containing it. Helicopters pulling water from Rutherford area ponds.

Still not going to work, no power or phones or Internet so no point.

 

[boney]

Perhaps a new "What does PG&E Owe you thread?" For some idiot reason I was coming to this thread to see if my North Bay Peeps are still hanging in there. These fires aren't out yet maybe hold off on the blame game for a few more days

Hey Jeff, Daniel, Frank, Tom, Koi, Mark, ....how are you guys holding up?

It's good here in Sonoma. Going back to a normal routine. Thanks for asking.

 

[Snaggy]

Well, they can't charge you for services you're not getting. So it's in their business interest to get everyone power again. They're doing good work, but I don't think it's benevolence.

But this actually happened. PG&E charged me for electricity I always got from a local utility. When my home was built, supposedly PG&E put in the lines, but a local company always provided the service. Apparently PUC gave PG&E the OK to bill my subdivision for that. Most people never paid and the issue went away.
I paid it for a few months, was about $15.

They're scum, starting with the phony bankruptcy 15 years ago that led to the San Bruno Massacre