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Low end torque OR high end power, which is worse for learning?

pannayar

pannayar

e^ipi+1=0
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Location
The Pale Blue Dot
Moto(s)
SV650s ('02)
EDIT: This is not about me wanting to buy a 600 i4. Just a discussion on the aspects of a v-twin's power and i4...

For a "sensible" beginner (with a little prior riding experience) is a SV650 (or a similar bike with a lot of low end torque) more friendly or a 600cc sport (like the F4i/RR etc)? By a sensible rider, I roughly mean a rider who stays below say 6K rpm. The SV650 is often termed "beginner friendly" whereas the 600cc is a strong NO (actually this thread makes me write this...)

My point (thinking) is if the rpms are sub 7K, the 600cc super-sport is going to be more friendlier to learn throttle control than a SV650 because of their lower torque and less sensitivity in that range.

Other than one 50 mile ride 12 years back on my friend's F4i, I have not ridden the 600 and higher class of super sports... So this could be a figment of my imagination. Finally I emphasize, we are talking about a sedate rider who is not completely new to motorcycles, and keeping the tach below 6K.

EDIT: Here is a rough SV ('03) and F4i chart up to 10K rpm. Thanks to ride365 for the superimpose.

23ld006.jpg


A table from some other source (1st gen SV).
mh96bb.jpg
 
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Don't worry about torque. You can never have too much torque. This from a guy who rides "the tractor of motorcycles".
 
Not a whole lot of videos of people looping or having SV650 bikes get away from them. Then again, the more sensible people are buying them....

I wrote up this whole post but then realized I know fuck-all about power technicalities
 
It's not just the engine. The handling and the riding position also play a big part in it. Even the "S" model SV650 has a very comfortable and easy to ride position.
 
monkeythumpa said:
Don't worry about torque. You can never have too much torque. This from a guy who rides "the tractor of motorcycles".
Click to expand...

I understand what you mean. But I think we are talking the torque to weight ratio. Sure, a boat load of torque on a 700 lb monster does not mean much.
 
I started on a 600cc inline 4 at 18, and wasn't retarded enough to get into any serious trouble. I think it really depends on your learning ability and familiarity with how the machine operates. I had a lot of experience doing track days with cars and driving stick shift, as well as way too many runs out in the mountains before I jumped on a bike. The experience with racing lines, having finesse with controls, being able too "feel" what was going on and vision discipline payed dividends when transitioning to a bike.

As far as then engine, yes it can make a huge difference at lower rpm. When I was starting I didnt really ever rev it above 7k at all. I would usually be between 4-5k in a corner and shift past 6. The softened up throttle response made it MUCH easier to practice getting a smooth throttle roll-on through a corner. As I got better I was going faster with more rpm, getting smoother and smoother as I learned to have good throttle control. So YES what you are saying does make sense, and can be accomplished, just dont expect it to be nearly as fun out of the box as the SV. It will take a lot more learning to have it going at 7k+ all the way through the twisties.

TL;DR, Its much more about you than the bike.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a shitload of torque what is gonna make a n00b 12-o-clock his bike when he manhandles the throttle?
 
pannayar said:
My point (thinking) is if the rpms are sub 7K, the 600cc super-sport is going to be more friendlier to learn throttle control than a SV650 because of their lower torque and less sensitivity in that range.
Click to expand...

IMHO, torque-favored motors (parallel twin 250/300/650, v twin 650, thumper 400/500) provide a whole hell of a lot more feedback and "feel" in the clutch engagement at slow speed / low speed stuff, and starting from a stop, which really makes it easier to learn the practicalities of the friction zone and proper clutch control with throttle application.
YMMV, but I came to this conclusion in my first year of riding after learning on a parallel twin, and then trying out my friend's FZ6 and absolutely loathing that motor.

Generally it's all about the rider not the bike, but if somebody who wants to learn asks me for my opinion on torque vs 600 i4s, that's what they'll hear.
 
Abyss said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a shitload of torque what is gonna make a n00b 12-o-clock his bike when he manhandles the throttle?
Click to expand...

If you meant this, yes a shitload of torque is bad which means NOT favoring the SV (compared to a 600 I4).
j8fimv.jpg
 
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all those bikes are solid, but they also can get you into trouble just as easily. Ride the bike that catches your eye.
 
pannayar said:
My point (thinking) is if the rpms are sub 7K, the 600cc super-sport is going to be more friendlier to learn throttle control than a SV650 because of their lower torque and less sensitivity in that range.
Click to expand...

To me, the more critical rpm range for user friendliness is lower down, from off idle (1.5k rpm) to 3k-4k rpm, and how linear the torque/power builds up. That determines how the bike steps off from a stop, and how it behaves at low speed. The difference is less pronounced on straight city streets and freeways, but becomes critical on technical (tight/steep) roads. This low rpm range is where a 600's power would be milder than the SV, and perhaps easier to manage.

The problem with 600cc SS for newbies is not the power, but the ergo. The aggressive riding position is less natural for a new rider, and is much harder to learn on than a bike with an upright riding position.

The ideal beginner's bike would have a mild low-end torque/power and an upright ergo, e.g., GS500 or Ninja 500.
 
Torque = horsepower

There's a few numbers missing in that equation but you get the idea
 
Jiggles said:
Torque = horsepower

There's a few numbers missing in that equation but you get the idea
Click to expand...

Interesting that you brought it up. I am not an expert but my knowledge of physics makes me think that the "few numbers" missing are the RPM.

Torque * RPM = HP

They match dimensionally corroborating it. I.e in metric units
(Newton * meter) * (1/second) = Watt

Which means the SV is making the higher HP for a given RPM (up to around 8K-ish) and hence less friendly in that range... beyond 8K-ish the v-twin loses 'steam' (steam=torque) & hence HP too.
 
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I've heard a couple people say that an SV650 would be worse beginner bike than a 600 just because it has more low-end torque, and I just laugh. :rofl:rofl

No matter what you say, people will always make an excuse trying to justify buying that "tight looking" 600.......You know, the one with a jagged power curve, high seat, high pegs, low bars, stiff ride, tiny mirrors, and the temptation to explore high rpm's and then go "oh shit"
 
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Abyss said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a shitload of torque what is gonna make a n00b 12-o-clock his bike when he manhandles the throttle?
Click to expand...

If a rider is that far into stupid...Not having even the remotest concept of what controls do, and obviously didn't take MSF...then...There is no hope.

Don't blame torque...
there is only one place to put blame, and the idiot gets that award.
 
Abyss said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a shitload of torque what is gonna make a n00b 12-o-clock his bike when he manhandles the throttle?
Click to expand...

Generally, people don't manhandle the throttle unless they want to.

I don't recall any situation as a noob where I "accidentally" grabbed too much throttle or lifted the front end. No, what got me into trouble was intentionally going too fast, and then coming up on a corner too fast. Which is more common on a 600 than an SV, since the 600's high rpm burst makes that distance shrink in a non-linear fashion.
 
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