95 mpg

[Johndicezx9]

As someone else has inferred, early adopters always pay through the nose and often to the benefit, eventually, of us unwashed masses who get new tech at a reasonable price.

So thank you early adopters.

Yup... I always think of the early VHS/VCR's going for $1200 in 1977... what's that in todays dollars, around $4600?

 

[GAJ]

Yup... I always think of the early VHS/VCR's going for $1200 in 1977... what's that in todays dollars, around $4600?

My first HiFi VCR was $1,250!

About what I paid for my 60inch Panasonic Plasma last year.

5 years ago a 60inch Plasma would have been, what, $5,000?

My first VideoCam was $1,275 and almost the size of a briefcase...but worth every penny as the only reason I bought it was because we had a kid.

My first Surround Sound processor was around $1,000 back in the day; a Shure HTS 5000.

That was also worth it.

 

[Ducky_Fresh]

My buddy got his Tesla Model S yesterday and took me for a ride to get some milk (really!).

Fuck, that thing rips.

 

[aszrael1266]

The model S holds the record for fastest production electric car in the 1/4 mile
http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/28/tesla-model-s-fastest-production-ev/
it consistently did low to mid 12's all day long at the track.

 

[Johndicezx9]

The model S holds the record for fastest production electric car in the 1/4 mile

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/28/tesla-model-s-fastest-production-ev/

it consistently did low to mid 12's all day long at the track.

I see Horse posted there as well:

LeonardHarrington
8 minutes ago

you could get this, or for less cash you could get a mercedes E63 AMG that goes faster, weighs less, and still meets tier 2 "bird fart" emissions. it seems silly to me that all of these boutique electric cars are being made in the name of being green, yet these cars are inaccessible to the people that are making most of the automotive based air pollution. I can buy a toyota yaris for 15k. the leaf is around 35k. I dont know about you, but that would be a hell of a stretch for a car that would not even get me through my day to day drive.

 

[GAJ]

I see Horse posted there as well:

LeonardHarrington
8 minutes ago

you could get this, or for less cash you could get a mercedes E63 AMG that goes faster, weighs less, and still meets tier 2 "bird fart" emissions. it seems silly to me that all of these boutique electric cars are being made in the name of being green, yet these cars are inaccessible to the people that are making most of the automotive based air pollution. I can buy a toyota yaris for 15k. the leaf is around 35k. I dont know about you, but that would be a hell of a stretch for a car that would not even get me through my day to day drive.

If you, (or your company), are crazy enough to spend $90k on a sedan I guess you'd feel compelled to rant on and on about it.

I guess he doesn't believe in trickle down technology.

 

[stan23]

I failed to catch up on the last few pages, but this has been awesome. I left at Horse's first post, and read them all. haha

- Horse is a funny man. Reminds me of those guys in HS where everything they owned is better than yours.

Also, the Model S is awesome. I would buy one in a heartbeat if I could afford it!

 

[Holeshot]

I showed my numbers earlier in this thread.

Like I said if you like the car and its features, then there is nothing wrong with that. The good gas mileage is a nice perk. However if you try to justify the car because of cost savings it is a fail. You break even over the life of the car if you compare it to a good inexpensive car that gets 30+ MPG.

Your math leaves a lot to be desired, but most importantly the 225K miles/ 15 years is too far from the average ownership age: 5 years. That's why I picked that number...and average miles: 75K. As Tim said, if I take my scenario out to 300K miles, I'll blow whatever shitbox you've stiplulated for the comparison. However, chosing a shitbox to compare against, you mays well choose a used Honda Fit for like $7K and make the numbers even more stacked.

That's not quite how comparisons work though...

cash flow is dead on, as Tim indicated. Most people in this country don't understand how cash flow works thus, they don't understand why they're always broke. Reading your scenario and lack of depth to some loose numbers, you'll never be able to figure out what's better for your life...only that you have a predisposed position on the subject. I used to be exactly where you are now. Then I did the math...over and over and over. And it always worked out the same. Did I mention it's now up to 110MPG?

When a Hybrid has depreciated for 10 years..and needs that battery pack replaced...that also puts it in the,
"it's worth close to nothing" category.

In a normal car, you'll put at least 3 batteries in 10 years. Now, that's not very much money, but it's still operational waste. However, those batteries will have a lower cost in those 10 years and most likely will carry much more energy/ capacity meaning, the car with a battery change alone, will have greater range and capacity than when it was new. How easy is that? Change batteries, get more range. Yes, it's not free...but then again, neither are engine rings, exhaust systems, cracked exhaust manifolds (thanks Honda), plastic water pumps, etc. By 10 years (150K miles) most ICE cars have some serious issues on the horizon...hence the reason they're not worth shit. Your argument is the same argument I was using a few years ago somewhat justifying my 560HP sedan. Now I don't have to justify anything...own an efficent car AND a gas hog. It's (gas) not a problem to my checkbook anymore...at least for me.

As someone else has inferred, early adopters always pay through the nose and often to the benefit, eventually, of us unwashed masses who get new tech at a reasonable price.

So thank you early adopters.

Truth Geoff. The reason I bought this car aside from I liked how they strategized it's efficiency/ hybrid-ness, was because the incentives and financing were too damn good, especially as a business asset. Cash flow-wise, It won't be necessary to come out of pocket for over 26 months, all the while, saving about $6500 in fuel annually. How do you not make that decision?

 

[mercurial]

I love charts, they are always really helpful in understanding how things work. I took a Camry depreciation curve (seen here: http://carsabi.com/car-news/2012/03/17/hacking-used-car-purchase/), and applied it to a Corolla priced at $15,000 and the Volt at $30,000. Assume 30 MPG for Corolla, 56 MPG for Volt. Corolla 3% 4 year loan, Volt 5 year loan 0% for first 2 years then 3% thereafter (I probably should've set both of these to 4% which is the average rate, but financing terms end up being relatively immaterial based on the #s.)

Over 10 years the Volt comes out a little worse, but not by much:

Change the Corolla to the $20,000 model (probably makes sense to give it a comparable package of options), and change the Volt MPG to Berto's experience (effective 110 MPG) and now the volt is looking much more attractive:

Finally, let's stretch the timespan to 15 years, assume the volt has a slightly lower overall depreciation rate, and at year 10 is fully depreciated (while Corolla continues to depreciate at same rate until year 15.)

Assuming a battery replacement in the volt at year 10, for $5000:

 

[JesasaurusRex]

Talking completely out of my ass, however, i'd assume most people who buy brand new vehicles, aren't the same people that keep vehicles for 10-15 years.

 

[250mL]

Holeshot, I'd love to see your numbers, or some of your assumptions going into your calculations. I think you're trying to be sneaky, or aren't giving us your whole story. I certainly don't think your numbers are representing the average consumer.

For example:
1) Reporting 110MPG. This might be a true number of miles driven on physical gasoline in your current situation, but what I think you're leaving out is that there's an outside electrical component that you're inputting to the vehicle at some unknown cost. What's your MPGe rating?

Especially considering the vehicle is reported to deliver only 98MPGe purely on electricity...you'd have to be running exclusively on electricity all the time while creating a 10% energy boost...those must be long hills or extremely good brake regeneration...

2) What are you paying for electricity? You suggest free from work or maybe even $0.04/Kwh (I assume a commercial rate?). I can buy this scenario for the non-average person who has access while at work, but I doubt this rate applies to the other portion of your charging needs at home.

For those that must charge exclusively at home, take a look at your electrical usage. My base electrical rate at home:
1st tier (base, 100%) = $0.12 / Kwh
2nd tier (100-130%) = $0.13 / Kwh
3rd tier (130-200%) = $0.30 / Kwh
4th tier (200-???%) = $??? /Kwh
I can see some people being pushed up into the 4th tier. Charging once a day every day is over 315Kwh per month.
These are rates 3x-7x, or even greater, than yours.

Then once you're off the battery, you'll need to run Premium fuel at $3.60 for every 37 miles driven.

3) Are you really driving 32,500 miles per year? (Based on $6,500 fuel bill, 18 MPG vehicle, $3.60/gal Premium fuel.) A reduction to 20% of $6500 is $1200. If so, you must be either 1) getting free electricity at work to offset premium fuel usage, 2) driving entirely in 35 mile chunks, recharging 2.5 times a day at the $0.13 rate, 3) some extreme combination of the above, or 4) not telling the whole story.

I don't intend on getting into an e-peen fight, but you have people using your claimed 110MPG in posts trying to make a point, when I don't think it's telling the true story on costs (especially for the average consumer).

If I'm wrong, made some errors, or have made some ASSumptions, I can own up to it.

 

[mercurial]

IIRC you qualify for a special fixed rate for charging electrical vehicles at home during off-hours. It would not effect or interact with the tier system for regular home use.

Also the 32,500 miles per year changes everything. In that case, I can shift the Volt's eMPG down to 45 and assuming Camry-like depreciation curves for both cars, we still see this TCO curve over 10 years:

In high mileage scenarios, the Volt's superior average overall MPG really starts to kick ass.

 

[Archimedes]

Talking completely out of my ass, however, i'd assume most people who buy brand new vehicles, aren't the same people that keep vehicles for 10-15 years.

Funny, most of the new cars I've bought were kept 10+ years and most of the used cars I've bought were gone in less than 3. I buy my anchor vehicles new and keep them a long time. I buy the toys used and flip them when I get bored with them.

 

[Holeshot]

250ml, my $6500 bill was based on near $4.25-4.50 premium fuel. Only recently has it fallen below $4.00/ gal. I drive about 20K miles a year and then an additional 2500 or so on 10MPG, non-premium. I didn't count that. Also, I'm about 15-16MPG on my ICE cars (Ram truck, CTS-V car).

The numbers in my caluclation with the Accord do include electricity to charge the vehicle up. With how I use my car, I should be around 80-90mpg, not the 110 I reported above...I can only say I'm at that level because I've not done an hour long drive as I need to do about twice a week. Because the average MPG calculates electric power at 250mpg max, it's a different reading than the agreed upon standard used of 36kw/ mile on the official window sticker.

There is a special E-9 rate still availible, but that's all changing coming down the pipe too. However, at current it's really cheap...the car also allows to be programed for a "time of us" charging cycle, to stay off peak. Free charging stations exist, if you know where to plug in, but many are pay for use. Still, it's cheaper than an ICE alternative at current. Yes, plugging in at work helps. Some consumers will be able to, others won't.

My situation is exactly that; my situation. It's why this isn't for everyone. However for many people, it just might work in some capacity. What should be surprising is me, myself espousing the benefits of this car...considering I was prettty staunchly against hybrids, electric cars, etc.

 

[Archimedes]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, if it had a conventional drivetrain. The interior is on par with a car of that price point. Just the like Tesla is more on par with a MB, BMW, etc

Actually, you mean a conventional drivetrain with way more performance, i.e., a different car. The Tesla can be compared with an MB/BMW, because it's HP and Torque ratings are comparable to the competition's IC motors. The Volts aren't even close to its competition. It's not even close to a $25,000 Impala.

 

[TheRobSJ]

Omg, so much math. I think Berto piles on a lot more miles a year than me so the math is much different for him. The two weeks I drove the Volt, I was at 190mpg. If I were to have one permanently, I figure I'd be 250+ because I can pretty much squeeze my round trip commute all in the EV range.

My math:

To hell "MPGe" and whatever kw/h conversion the EPA came up with. I looked at what Silicon Valley Power charged me for that month. Based on my kw/h rate and the fact that a Volt takes 10.5 kw/h full charge, I know it cost me just a hair over a dollar to charge. To go roughly 40 miles. My dad has the EV vehicle owner "E-9" plan from PG&E, and his rate lets him full charge his Volt for just over 30 cents.

In my Corvette, that same 40 miles would eat just a little under 2 gallons. At the time, premium at Chevron was a little over $4/gal. It's still around $3.80 today. But at the time, I figured it was an even $8 to make my commute.

Versus a buck (for me charging at my house) to do it in the Volt.

$7 a day x 5 work days = $35 a week
$35 x 51 weeks of work = $1785 a year
And throw in some use running for groceries or whatever on weekends.
So I'd be saving around $1800-1900 a year in fuel costs.

And that's just the driving I have to do. If I were to use it for a longer trip instead of the Corvette or the GF's Cadillac, there'd be some more fuel savings there. But that's not a variable I can really quantify, so I'll just stick with the driving I have to do and say I save a minimum of $1850 a year in fuel.


So. Lemme see if it's worth it when choosing a new commuter car here.

Now a loaded Volt is about $35k after the tax credits.

A new Chevy Cruze (which the Volt is loosely based off of) loaded with comparable options is $25k.

$10k difference between the two.

$1850 into $10000 tells me that all I gotta do is keep the car for more than 5.4 years, then I justified the extra cost of the Volt over the Cruze.

So. 5 1/2 years and I can be as smug as can be. I can do it. I've been commuting with a Corvette (yes I know that's silly) for 8 years and will probably get rid of the car this year. If it was 10+ years I had to keep the car, I dunno. But 5ish...no problem.


Oh...and all the while in that 5 1/2 years. I didn't have to stop for gas (which annoys me to no end) every week. I got to drive in the commuter lane for the next two years. And I get to park in the "green vehicle" or EV vehicle parking spots in various businesses and venues.





Sonofabitch. Think I just sold myself.

 

[TheRobSJ]

There is a special E-9 rate still availible, but that's all changing coming down the pipe too. However, at current it's really cheap..

Yes it is. See the above post.

And it's changing from E-9A to EV in a few months. Not sure if the rates stay the same. But right now it's stupid cheap. As long as you have the 240v charger so you can program the car accordingly and squeak the whole charge in on the off peak times.

Even my dad's Rav4 is less than a buck to charge.

 

[SpeedyCorky]

I figured i'd chime back into this thread, as i figure now is a good time to display the numbers from driving a 13 year old car that gets excellent fuel efficiency. (50mpg overall tank average, well 52 and rising with more aero mods....but lets not split hairs)... but i aint braggin'


My daily commute round trip is also 40 miles.

In my 2000 civic HX, 40 miles would burn just a little under 1 gallon. gas is about $3.80/gal, so at 50mpg, thats $3.04 per day to go 40 miles. lets call it $3.

* $3 a day x 5 work days = $15 a week
* $15 x 51 weeks of work = $765 a year (i only work 36weeks a year, not 51, but to keep the numbers consistent...btw anyone that works 51 weeks a year is doing it wrong...)

A loaded Volt is about $35k after the tax credits.

My shitbox civic i have $5k in, all told. 125k miles, new tyres, full tune up, etc. If i was less anal, i could have had the total cost less than $4k. but if i'm gonna drive a shitbox, its gonna be a somewhat respectable shitbox!

$30k difference between the two cars. ouch. yup $30,000.

Sounds like the Volt goes a laughable 40miles on a charge, and it cost $1 to charge it, so at 40miles/day, thats about $250/yr in electricity costs to charge the Mc.Fancypants Volt.

So joy, for an extra $30k, you get a nice new car, and save a whopping ~$500/yr, all while being supremely limited in the fact your vehicle only goes 40miles. it would take you right around 60 years for you to simply break even with the Volt VS my shitbox civic.

I dunno 'bout u folks, but for $30k, i can handle driving a shitbox civic. fuck the sat nav, heated seats, back up camera, heated mirrors, 20 airbags, etc - i'll take the $30k kthxbi

my point is that buying a new hybrid, or most any new car - is simply not a 'money saving' adventure. period. if you must drive a new car for whatever reason, then yes, there are worse choices out there. but if your goal is to get to work and back for cheap - a new Volt is a foolish choice VS a 2000 Honduh Civic HX, or other comparable 15+ year old economy ICE vehicle

so

 

[Holeshot]

...or take the FREE RIDE BUS! (It's Free). Why anyone would buy a 2000 Honda Civic when there's a perfectly good free bus system is beyond me. I mean let's be honest...that's just a $4K waste. No one needs a 2000 Honda Civic when you can ride the bus.

 

[SpeedyCorky]

yea but then u r on da bus