Sears Point Turn One

[scalvert]

Jim: Thanks!

Zoran: You're probably right, but it'll be funny to watch as various things like 'tards get popular as a way for people to rediscover the fun of 50-90mph that we left behind in our rush to tame 300hp racing.

Ken: I agree that racing no matter what size vehicle is fun and has similar challenges. I just know that for an SV being pinned and tucked down the front straight, hitting a brake marker, trail braking to a 45 mph apex, managing rear traction for the 0.5 seconds between when I pass the apex and I get the bike stood up enough that I don't have to worry about traction, then tucking in to wait for the next brake marker isn't anywhere near as fun or challenging as the old T1.

When the day comes that the safety commitee decides that T5 is too dangerous as the big bikes are able to hit 215mph between T4 and T5's entrance and that we need a chicane in the middle of the hill I'll dig this thread out and you can all admire my predictive abilities.

 

[Trackho]

On the flip side I'm going to propose something novel. What we're seeing here is essentially the bifurcation of our sport. Trackho and others will gladly emphasize that small bikes and big bikes have next to nothing in common. Get most of the big bike riders in an honest mood (and at least for Trackho that's all the time) and they'll admit that they only put up with small bikes polluting their race and track days is cause we help cover the costs. Frankly I think USGPRU has the right idea. As time goes on and liter bikes go from 180HP to 250HP to 300HP pretending they can coexist with smaller bikes will get harder and harder.

Actually, I said that I dont like liter bikes on the same track at the same time as motards, avg SVs and the like in a RACE---the speed deltas are just getting too dangerous. This is primarily an issue in F40 and used to be in OGP when the SVs were in wave #1.

Having said that- if SVs droppped off the face of the earth--it wouldnt bug me one iota.

Besides, my two favorite women racers; Kathy and Elaine ride sub- 1/2 liter bikes

Sorry to threadjack

 

[TWF]

Having said that- if SVs droppped off the face of the earth--it wouldnt bug me one iota.

sv's and 125's
at least at your age you got good memory

 

[Zerox]

On an SV the old T1/T2 combo was one of the most difficult, most rewarding corner combinations on our schedule.

Huh? The full-speed T1 would be an easy corner on an SV650, just hold it WFO and go around the curve. With the AMA T1, now you actually have to use some riding skill.

I've seen the little Ninja 250s race the AMA T1 config, and it was just like any other corner....the fastest riders carried the most speed, while the slow riders didn't. Such as '03 250P champ Steve Chan, his speed through the AMA T1 was jaw-dropping.

 

[scalvert]

The SV is WFO through the first part of the turn, but that doesn't mean you're just along for the ride. The only way I could find enough traction to stay WFO all the way to my brake marker for T2 was to be in just the right position under the bridge and heading up the hill.

Riding alone was one thing, but getting around people in such a way that I didn't have to give the position up by being out of position going into T2 was fun and rather unique.

Getting through new T1 well isn't trivial, but it's not much different than any other stop, turn 90 degrees, drive out corner. It also slows the run to T2 enough that you don't have to plan your T1 line to make T2 work. You just exit T1, go WFO, and drive to the entry of T2.

 

[Zerox]

Getting through new T1 well isn't trivial, but it's not much different than any other stop, turn 90 degrees, drive out corner.

Aha we've found your problem, it's not a 90-degree corner, more like 45 degrees.

Don't think of it as a slow corner, make it a fast corner and you'll be happier.

Or you could just haul on the front brake!

 

[humbug612]

It appears that the AMA style turn one is going to happen this year. :|
This chicane raises more safety issues than it solves. It can be dangerous.

I've known Chuck Graves since the early '80's, His first trip to the track (Willow Springs) He went strait through Turn 1, He wound up breaking both arms, I'm thinking it will just take a slightly different learning curve, and possibly a bit more info at the rider's meeting cant hurt, Less speed will mean less pain in the times when riders ego's overide their abilities.

 

[NoQuarter]

...
When the day comes that the safety commitee decides that T5 is too dangerous as the big bikes are able to hit 215mph between T4 and T5's entrance and that we need a chicane in the middle of the hill I'll dig this thread out and you can all admire my predictive abilities.

Just see page 2 for my comments there, which has been conveniently mojo'd and highlighted for easy reference... but yes, you are right. At some point in the not too distant future, the track design of Sears Point will cease to be viable for modern race machinery. Bitch all you want, but it won't stop the progress of motor racing.

Sure, there will always be the groups who enjoy the thrills/challenges/budget of vintage and/or power restricted racing, but as a club that's large enough to go with the flow and keep our top teir of riders on par with the professional scene, it will have to evolve and use venues appropriate to the task. Fortunately for those of us who enjoy modern racing, those facilities are being designed, financed and built with increasing frequency these days. Just like most of us look at pics of Sears and Laguna during the 80's and think WFT??, so too will future generations look at our situation now.

It's an evolutionary process and we will adapt as best we can. I too will miss T1 and still miss the old T9.... I miss my first race bike too, doesn't mean I wish I was still racing it.

 

[ALANRIDER7]

Or you could just haul on the front brake!

Damn. It's still like threading a needle or riding into a funnel.

It's nice to know the runoff area will be addressed in some fashion. Any more info available on that?

 

[jrace]

A gravel pit would be nice WAY wide, if a bit extreme. On the other hand, gravel hurts.

Maybe a fun pit. I've always wondered what sliding into these at 100 mph would be like....

-jim

 

[NoQuarter]

since I know everyone has been waiting for some comparison videos and diagrams....

on board from last AFM 600Prod race and the opening of my Qualifying lap from last year's AMA race...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=59462656362255154&pr=goog-sl

and a graphically challenged look at the lines and impact zones of the two variants. and for those whose impression it was that the AMA T1 is a 90 degree affair, take a closer look. (again, here i am giving away valuable info to the competition, oh well)

and note as well that it isn't a "straight shot" up to T2 either, as some people seem to think. it is a bit of threading the needle on exit, but so is the entry to the esses... besides, hopping curbs is fun

 

[NoQuarter]

huh, editing my post got rid of the graphic, oh well.. here it is...

 

[scalvert]

Nice work on the photos and videos. They do lay the situation out nicely.

While there was a bit of a whine to what I was saying because, frankly, I doubt I'll ever have the money, motivation, or talent to belong on an AFM grid on a bike as fast as a modern 600 or larger, I was mostly agreeing with you. I do wonder as the process continues and the "small" bikes become things that eat $1k in tires in a weekend and lay down 130hp thusly requiring a pilot who is either semi-pro or simply blind to his inability to cope with his machine, will the AFM continue to find people to fill the grids?

Either way racing and the AFM will continue. If the fastest machines get beyond what the rider pool in the AFM can really deal with there'll be a resurgence of interest in smaller machines and track configurations to suit them. If not, I'll race other clubs and cornerwork for the AFM from time to time.

 

[afm199]

N I do wonder as the process continues and the "small" bikes become things that eat $1k in tires in a weekend and lay down 130hp thusly requiring a pilot who is either semi-pro or simply blind to his inability to cope with his machine, will the AFM continue to find people to fill the grids?

Bingo. Somewhere I have shot of 16 takeoffs from one long season on the 1000rr. A similar season on the SV is maybe 6 tires. One of the reasons I got rid of the 1000rr.

 

[NoQuarter]

You both point out the reasons why our club has a lot of classes, to suit the needs and preferences of a large base. But I really don't think that advancing machinery will diminish the numbers or talent pool, quite the opposite really. Technology is making the bikes easier to ride, not harder. Easier to ride simple forces the upper threshold higher (faster), which then requires revaluating the safety aspects. Even that improves with time, air fencing wasn't even invented what, 15 years ago? Perhaps one day we will see auto-inflating airbags at every possible impact zone, airbags built into our leathers... who knows. The things I'm sure of is that speeds will increase, technology will advance and safety will improve. And so too will the cost of participation, but considering how much technology we get for the dollar these days it's surprising that that curve isn't steeper.

 

[4xfore]

Did bikes get any faster from the end of 2004 to the end of 2006?
Did the length of Infineon change?
The reason I ask, I don't see these changes in the lap times in Formula Pacific. That assumes a simple Rate X Time = Distance.

No Q. nice diagram. However, when the pads fell out of the bike I was riding going into AMA T1, I was way outside the Blue graph.

Does anyone remember why AFM stopped using this AMA T1 ?

 

[NoQuarter]

Did bikes get any faster from the end of 2004 to the end of 2006?
Did the length of Infineon change?
The reason I ask, I don't see these changes in the lap times in Formula Pacific. That assumes a simple Rate X Time = Distance.

No Q. nice diagram. However, when the pads fell out of the bike I was riding going into AMA T1, I was way outside the Blue graph.

Does anyone remember why AFM stopped using this AMA T1 ?

Did you mean 2005 to 2006? Because in '04 we still ran the old T9 and those times were quite a bit quicker. Besides, lap times are subject to so many variables that a straight comparison doesn't reflect the true nature of the situation. One poorly placed oil spill can affect lap times for the entire day. Or ambient temperatures, or wind, or... etc. Better to track the changes over multiple years and if data were available and organized, speeds at various points around the track. (which is also likely to be fairly standard equip relatively soon with the cost of gps data logging coming down to consumer level costs).

As for losing brake pads into AMA T1... the run off is straight, smooth and slightly uphill all the way to T6. Except for that one corner worker station a ways off, not much to hit that I know of.

 

[4xfore]

Yea, I meant the 2005 and 2006 race seasons. I raced in '04 and we tried the AMA T1 but not the new T9.

Smooth? No. Easy to go up the hill? Not that day. It will depend a great deal how much rain erodes the hillsides and where all that water goes. The day I refer to, it was extremely eroded and there were sand bags diversions all over the place.

 

[wookie]

Dave - excellent diagram. As fun as the old turn 1 was/is, I have to say that at least 1 or 2x a weekend I had that thought "if I crash here I am probably not walking away". Despite the AMA having its problems, I think they are trying to make race tracks safer & if they run the turn 1 chicane for safety reasons, I am not going to argue. I can see peoples concerns about making racetracks a bunch of straightaways separated by chicanes but I think this (turn 1) was definitely an area that needed addressing. I felt the same way about the back section before they put the turn 9 bus stop in. It was one of those places that was really fun but at the same time you know there would most likely be severe consequences for a mistake - as for people saying Jim G's death was a freak occurence, I am pretty sure Josh Scott was killed in the same place back in '96. If nothing else it will be a good way to judge the clubs times against the AMA guys from now on.

 

[NoQuarter]

The track has changed a great deal since '04. The exact condition of the run off of AMA T1 does vary, so it would be prudent of us to make sure it is acceptable as an emergency bail out.

The main purpose of the diagram was to illustrate the potential impact zones resulting from the most common crash type, a front end tuck. A situation like yours regarding brake pads dropping out is rare and short of having infinite run off area, not something that can be solved readily by a change in the track. I can't think of all that many hard braking zones where that wouldn't be an issue. (T7 has a nice big parking lot to shoot off into, but it still wouldn't be very fun)